So many people absent today; it's November 19th

[apl68]

Late semester blues.  I tell students there is a definite sag in energy at different parts of the semester.  This is, no doubt, one of those, although it is rather late (usually students are running for the light at the end of the tunnel at this point).

For those who've been at it for a long time, is there any sense that the incidence of "late semester blues" has changed over the years, or has it always been thus?

[ciao_yall]

Late semester blues.  I tell students there is a definite sag in energy at different parts of the semester.  This is, no doubt, one of those, although it is rather late (usually students are running for the light at the end of the tunnel at this point).

For those who've been at it for a long time, is there any sense that the incidence of "late semester blues" has changed over the years, or has it always been thus?

AKA the "Seventh Inning Stretch."

[Ghoul]

Hello all!  I want to thank you for these fora and for reassuring me that my experiences in the classroom are not anomalies!

Related to this topic, I have an attendance policy, so I've had almost full classrooms every time.  I know the students hate it, but I tell them that it is practice for the real world.  Only two more classes to go - one before Thanksgiving and one after.  It's been a long semester, for sure.

[Wahoo Redux]

Hello all!  I want to thank you for these fora and for reassuring me that my experiences in the classroom are not anomalies!

I had two classes today, both of which generally have good attendance, with maybe a quarter of the students in one and a third of the students in the other.  The students all looked shell-shocked.

[ciao_yall]

Hello all!  I want to thank you for these fora and for reassuring me that my experiences in the classroom are not anomalies!

Related to this topic, I have an attendance policy, so I've had almost full classrooms every time.  I know the students hate it, but I tell them that it is practice for the real world.  Only two more classes to go - one before Thanksgiving and one after.  It's been a long semester, for sure.

My colleagues have been calling in sick all week. So there seems to be a bug going around.

[apl68]

Related to this topic, I have an attendance policy, so I've had almost full classrooms every time.  I know the students hate it, but I tell them that it is practice for the real world. 

I've seen the debates here over attendance policies.  Speaking as a "real world" employer, I appreciate any effort to give students "practice for the real world."  I've seen abundant evidence that many of them have not been getting enough of that before they arrive in the world of work.

[Caracal]

Hello all!  I want to thank you for these fora and for reassuring me that my experiences in the classroom are not anomalies!

Related to this topic, I have an attendance policy, so I've had almost full classrooms every time.  I know the students hate it, but I tell them that it is practice for the real world.  Only two more classes to go - one before Thanksgiving and one after.  It's been a long semester, for sure.

What sort of attendance policy? I take attendance and it does count for a small percentage of the grade, but very strict attendance policies where you can't pass if you miss more than x classes or every two absences results in a half letter grade drop seem like more trouble than they are worth. I'm just trying to provide a bit of incentive to come to class without spending all my time dealing with doctors notes.

[KiUlv]

It's against policy in my university to count off for missing class. So we can't tie any part of the grade to attendance. Some faculty put points for "participation and professionalism," and I'm trying to figure out how to leverage that better next quarter. I teach graduate students, so smaller class sizes (7-25 people), and I notice when people are gone. I'm averaging about 80% attendance these days (sickness definitely going around... but I think also "paper due syndrome" has hit hard). I expect to be notified if someone has to miss- it might change how I organize groups, etc. I know I commented on that in the first class session for these classes, but I don't have it in the syllabus. Several no-shows without notifying me... I want to add that as part of what I look for in "professionalism."

[Caracal]

It's against policy in my university to count off for missing class. So we can't tie any part of the grade to attendance. Some faculty put points for "participation and professionalism," and I'm trying to figure out how to leverage that better next quarter. I teach graduate students, so smaller class sizes (7-25 people), and I notice when people are gone. I'm averaging about 80% attendance these days (sickness definitely going around... but I think also "paper due syndrome" has hit hard). I expect to be notified if someone has to miss- it might change how I organize groups, etc. I know I commented on that in the first class session for these classes, but I don't have it in the syllabus. Several no-shows without notifying me... I want to add that as part of what I look for in "professionalism."

What sort of grad school? Generally I would expect that grad students don't need explicit grade penalties to come to class. Also, that is a bizarre policy. What's the rationale? That some students might have things happen that cause them to miss class?

[KiUlv]

It's against policy in my university to count off for missing class. So we can't tie any part of the grade to attendance. Some faculty put points for "participation and professionalism," and I'm trying to figure out how to leverage that better next quarter. I teach graduate students, so smaller class sizes (7-25 people), and I notice when people are gone. I'm averaging about 80% attendance these days (sickness definitely going around... but I think also "paper due syndrome" has hit hard). I expect to be notified if someone has to miss- it might change how I organize groups, etc. I know I commented on that in the first class session for these classes, but I don't have it in the syllabus. Several no-shows without notifying me... I want to add that as part of what I look for in "professionalism."

What sort of grad school? Generally I would expect that grad students don't need explicit grade penalties to come to class. Also, that is a bizarre policy. What's the rationale? That some students might have things happen that cause them to miss class?

R1 university. It is against policy to grade on "behavior," and attendance is considered a behavior. You may grade on "learning goals," and some people manage to cleverly tie attendance into that, but we are warned against it in our orientation. The policy is universal across undergrad and grad school. There's a whole document clarifying on how, exactly, to avoid grading "behaviors." You can grade on attendance if you are explicit from the beginning and can clearly, without doubt, tie it to learning rather than to a behavior. But we're warned it's a slippery slope and we're better off not grading on attendance.

[Ghoul]

My undergrad classes meets twice per week, so my attendance policy is that they can miss 5 days for any reason, although absences for religious holidays and university-sponsored events are not counted against them, per University policy.  There are a lot of discussion days and in-class projects, so if students miss class, they miss out on important material that they need to pass.  I have found that students who miss more classes do poorly on exams and assignments, and my attendance policy isn't the reason they fail the class (i.e., they fail the class on their own without the policy being applied).  Another incentive is that my class is only offered once per year; if students fail, they have to wait a year to retake it.

[Caracal]

R1 university. It is against policy to grade on "behavior," and attendance is considered a behavior. You may grade on "learning goals," and some people manage to cleverly tie attendance into that, but we are warned against it in our orientation. The policy is universal across undergrad and grad school. There's a whole document clarifying on how, exactly, to avoid grading "behaviors." You can grade on attendance if you are explicit from the beginning and can clearly, without doubt, tie it to learning rather than to a behavior. But we're warned it's a slippery slope and we're better off not grading on attendance.

That is really pretty nuts.  In general terms, I agree that "behavior" is not a good thing to grade based on. The instructor needs to deal with class discipline without bringing grades into it. However,  it seems like an overreach to have a whole policy based on something that very few people are doing. Then, claiming that attendance is behavior, but taking tests, or turning in papers on time is not, seems like a pretty arbitrary distinction. The effect seems like it just removes a sometimes useful tool from instructors for no particularly good reason.

[downer]

R1 university. It is against policy to grade on "behavior," and attendance is considered a behavior. You may grade on "learning goals," and some people manage to cleverly tie attendance into that, but we are warned against it in our orientation. The policy is universal across undergrad and grad school. There's a whole document clarifying on how, exactly, to avoid grading "behaviors." You can grade on attendance if you are explicit from the beginning and can clearly, without doubt, tie it to learning rather than to a behavior. But we're warned it's a slippery slope and we're better off not grading on attendance.

That is really pretty nuts.  In general terms, I agree that "behavior" is not a good thing to grade based on. The instructor needs to deal with class discipline without bringing grades into it. However,  it seems like an overreach to have a whole policy based on something that very few people are doing. Then, claiming that attendance is behavior, but taking tests, or turning in papers on time is not, seems like a pretty arbitrary distinction. The effect seems like it just removes a sometimes useful tool from instructors for no particularly good reason.

I don't like the restriction on faculty freedom. It can be useful to have a way to give students an incentive to come to class.  It is awful to have low attendance and make teaching almost impossible.

Having said that, all my undergraduate assessment of my work was based on exams that were not set or graded by the people who taught me. I went to rather few lectures and only the ones that seemed useful to me. No attendance was ever taken. If I had been assessed by the methods that I now use in my teaching, I would not have done as well. There were tutorials and sometimes they were useful, but quite often a waste of time. They were mandatory. Much of my university education was self-education.

So I would be happy with an approach that made attendance purely optional and only measured ability. My prediction however is that doing this would mean that many more students would end up failing. Getting credit for turning up and doing the simple parts of the course well is often what gets a bunch of students through the course, and being pushed to attend is important for them because they are not good at self-education.

[Caracal]

So I would be happy with an approach that made attendance purely optional and only measured ability. My prediction however is that doing this would mean that many more students would end up failing. Getting credit for turning up and doing the simple parts of the course well is often what gets a bunch of students through the course, and being pushed to attend is important for them because they are not good at self-education.

I gather you went to school in the UK or Ireland? I did a semester abroad in Ireland and found the low attendance fairly demoralizing as a student. I'm also pretty sure it didn't lead to great outcomes for many students. I found the whole thing fairly easy, but I think that was just because I was socialized to actually come to class unlike all of the domestic students, most of whom did nothing all semester and then tried to cram like crazy in the final two weeks. I'm sure it worked fine for motivated and talented students, but most students aren't that.

I also would prefer not to take attendance, and there are many places where it isn't necessary. But, where I am, students don't come to class and then they do poorly.

[downer]

Yes, it was in the UK, and several decades ago. Things may have changed now, although I don't think that British student culture has changed a whole lot. It does make a difference having weekly tutorials in addition to lectures -- that does mean that you do have to keep up with some of the work.

It strikes me that having no attendance is the more libertarian approach -- let the students sink or swim on their own. There were remarkably few support services available when I was a student. The US system is strikingly different at most place -- with lots of effort to retain students and policies for the students' own good, giving them less freedom. I'd characterize it as more of a "nanny" approach. On the other hand, it is much more common for US students to have a lot of other responsibilities, especially jobs, while they are undergraduates. Maybe that explains the differences.