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Dealing with an annoying student

Started by the-tenure-track-prof, December 14, 2019, 05:17:57 PM

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the-tenure-track-prof

I am a new faculty and at the beginning of the semester, I initiated meetings with most graduate students I teach to break the ice and show students that I have an open mind and open-door policy. One student who I invited to a meeting, made such a big deal out of it and then when I`ve sent that student a friendly reminder to see if the student got my email, that student wrote me back an email that left me completely shocked as the student interpret my invitation that s/he is singled out and that I didnt invite other students to a meeting and this is because I have something against the student. Since it was only a few weeks into the semester, I was not only shocked but I was also puzzled as to how this could be possible?. I responded with one line "my door is open if you change your mind". I received an email stating "I am confused.." then suggesting to come and see me about something in an upcoming assignment.
It was clear during the meeting that s/he is making up questions not really about points the are unclear but just for the record that s/he met with me. I didn't, however, say or do anything and continue to be busy with all the zillion other things that I was busy with. The semester went by and I could see clearly that this is not an "A" student and has basic abilities in analytical thinking that are required in our field. It was clear from the writing and the quality of responses in the classroom and the lack of participation that the student is overwhelmed with the material and not able to grasp basic concepts. Being a new faculty I have been generous with grades and gave most students an A, and only few students got a B however I write a lot of comments and suggestions in all papers although it is extremely time-consuming. This student is among those who I granted an A in the graduate class that I teach. Today I`ve entered final grades but they are not going to be posted until Monday. I ddi post in the grading system the final grade and the grade for class participation which was still not posted.  After posting the score for the class participation, this student emails me to ask why the participation score is 10 points less than the full points 140/150. Note that no other student in all my classes asked any questions about the participation score even those who got B or C. Importantly this student doesn't deserve the A grade that I`ve granted him/er in the first place because the quality of answers s/he provides lacks creative and proper analytical skills that are expected from a graduate-level student and often times address my question by reading from my own PP slides in class.
I honestly not only think that this student doesnt deserve the A but this student clearly unaware of the level of his/er performance. My attempts to guide and help the student are perceived in a negative light and the student refuses to come and meet with me so I would explain things according to the student`s pace and meets him/er at their levels. From the papers that this student write I also see that this student is constantly angry at people.
My question is: It seems to me that now after granting an A grade, the student is just intentionally being annoying. Does anyone see that the student is corssing the line in any way?. In my institution the participation is at professor`s discretion. Once again I granted the student an A grade (but the student will see it on Monday when the registrar office enter grades). Shall I ignore the student`s email??. I honestly feel exhausted from this student who is an overbearing person and would like to get rid of this student who lacks many skills and also high maintenance student. Any insights? advises?

Hegemony

I had trouble understanding all this, but are you saying that the student is protesting their participation score even though they got an A in the class overall?

If so, just tell the student, "Your participation score did not lower your grade, so there's no point debating it."

Second, why ever would you give a student who did poorly an A in the first place?  Being new faculty is irrelevant.  You should give the student the grade that their work has earned.

If the student misunderstands your emails, you can explain your emails a second time — but that's even more evidence that this student is not very bright. 

backatit

The grade should be based on SOMETHING that adds up to a participation grade, so you should be able to explain it, surely? "you only attended x out of x meetings, so you earned this many participation points?" I have maybe TOO elaborate a system for figuring this, but it lets students calculate their own participation (meetings are so many, contribution towards group projects, because I teach a collaboration course, are so many more, and by the time they're through students usually understand why they're getting what they got, even if they don't agree with it). Same with assignments. I don't, as a general rule, agree with rubric grading (it's really not THAT much less arbitrary) but it does tend to cut down on this sort of thing. At the very least you should be able to explain why a student got the grade they did. And if you've been giving them A's all along, they probably WILL question it. If you grade them honestly but with substantiated feedback from the beginning you're in much better shape.

Grades shouldn't be a mystery to either you or the student.

the-tenure-track-prof

I do provide plenty of feedback on all assignments. As for class participation, I don`t think that just by attending classes a student can earn full points. A student who attends all classes and makes a real effort to contribute to discussions and shows interest to learn is not the same as a student who sits in class all semester without making a contribution to the class discussion.
Generally, I see that a grade doesn't really reflect who is a good student and who is not. Learning cant really be measured by a grade and when I grade a paper I try to give more points and not less to encourage students to improve their performance and not to discourage them. For that reason, I give also a lot of feedback on papers.
My point is should I at all give attention to this student`s email or not?. I just see this student as annoying since the final grade is an A so there is really no point. Besides, as someone else said here clearly this student is not a bright student.

Kron3007

I would just respond by telling them what would have been needed for full marks.  Otherwise, how would they improve ( not that they likely will take your advice)? 

I had a student write asking why they "only" got an 86 on a presentation this semester.  However, my feedback was pretty much all positive so I understand why they would want more feedback.  I basically told them an 86 means they did very well, then told them some areas that could be even better.  I don't know that they will make any adjustments to their future presentations, bit is valid for them to ask.

polly_mer

Quote from: the-tenure-track-prof on December 15, 2019, 02:51:30 AM
Learning cant really be measured by a grade and when I grade a paper I try to give more points and not less to encourage students to improve their performance and not to discourage them.

Please have a talk with a local departmental mentor, because this mindset is not standard for graduate courses anywhere I've been.  While learning cannot be measured by a grade, performance absolutely can be indicated by a grade.

Everywhere I've been graduate course grades are based on performance and tend to be either weeders on purpose (e.g., N Bs or K Cs and one is kicked out of the program) or checkboxes (e.g., B for good enough, A for exceptional, and the program weeds on comprehensive exam performance).

I also agree with Hegemony that in this particular case, the correct response is along the lines of "You have an overall A.  See you around the department in the spring!"
Quote from: hmaria1609 on June 27, 2019, 07:07:43 PM
Do whatever you want--I'm just the background dancer in your show!

Kron3007

Quote from: polly_mer on December 15, 2019, 05:37:40 AM
Quote from: the-tenure-track-prof on December 15, 2019, 02:51:30 AM
Learning cant really be measured by a grade and when I grade a paper I try to give more points and not less to encourage students to improve their performance and not to discourage them.

Please have a talk with a local departmental mentor, because this mindset is not standard for graduate courses anywhere I've been.  While learning cannot be measured by a grade, performance absolutely can be indicated by a grade.

Everywhere I've been graduate course grades are based on performance and tend to be either weeders on purpose (e.g., N Bs or K Cs and one is kicked out of the program) or checkboxes (e.g., B for good enough, A for exceptional, and the program weeds on comprehensive exam performance).

I also agree with Hegemony that in this particular case, the correct response is along the lines of "You have an overall A.  See you around the department in the spring!"

Yes very weird attitude.  Giving As to encourage seems opposite of what is needed as it tells them they are doing well rather than letting them know they need to improve.

Where I am, grade inflation is rampant, so a B is really a bad grade.  Even a low A 80s here) is not really great.  However, grade inflation is common across universities so if you don't do it your students are less competitive for national scholarships.

apostrophe

Giving high grades to weak graduate students is bad business that creates problems for everyone down the road, including the student.

It's too late for this semester, OP, but I suggest that you take a look at the good advice you've gotten already to minimize this situation and ensure it is not repeated. I don't know if it's a department norm to award points for participation to graduate students (I use whole-letter grades), but I suggest that you make this process much easier for yourself down the line.

For example, I have a clear policy: if you just show up, you get a C, if you contribute you get a B, etc. and take notes in the easiest way possible for me: no show, check for attending and being prepared, check minus for just attending, check plus for exceptional contributions. That's it.

the-tenure-track-prof

Thanks you all for the advises. I am starting to reconsider if I was not too easy with grading. I graduated from a research University and we were pushed so hard and there was no such a thing to talk even about a grade. The issue with these students is that they are spoon fed as one contributor stated earlier in a different post. He happened to have the same issues with his students.
On a different note, I really like the grading policy about participation and contribution to class discussion. What about the meaningfulness of a student's contribution. For example student who thinks and pay attention then answer a question, versus a student who would read something from my PP slides in front of him in the classroom, read it to me as an answer. Do you grade participation for both the same way?

Quote from: apostrophe on December 15, 2019, 09:54:51 AM
Giving high grades to weak graduate students is bad business that creates problems for everyone down the road, including the student.

It's too late for this semester, OP, but I suggest that you take a look at the good advice you've gotten already to minimize this situation and ensure it is not repeated. I don't know if it's a department norm to award points for participation to graduate students (I use whole-letter grades), but I suggest that you make this process much easier for yourself down the line.

For example, I have a clear policy: if you just show up, you get a C, if you contribute you get a B, etc. and take notes in the easiest way possible for me: no show, check for attending and being prepared, check minus for just attending, check plus for exceptional contributions. That's it.

apostrophe

Quote from: the-tenure-track-prof on December 15, 2019, 10:45:18 AM
On a different note, I really like the grading policy about participation and contribution to class discussion. What about the meaningfulness of a student's contribution. For example student who thinks and pay attention then answer a question, versus a student who would read something from my PP slides in front of him in the classroom, read it to me as an answer. Do you grade participation for both the same way?

No, I don't. I take attendance at the start of each class, so everyone starts with a check. If by the end of class, they haven't spoken or have spoken but show little preparation (i.e., they basically just showed up), they get a 'minus' added. If they showed some engagement and preparation, no changes to their mark. If they really stood out to me--made excellent contributions--they get a 'plus' added. It takes seconds at the end of class or when I get back to my office.

To me those grades are: check plus/A, check/B, check minus/C. I could put letter grades down from the start, but the check system is fractionally easier.

Caracal

The grade stuff depends a lot on the department. In some grad programs, anything other than an A is very uncommon. It isn't really grade inflation, it usually just means that grad students aren't actually being evaluated by grades.

Kron3007

Quote from: Caracal on December 15, 2019, 01:11:16 PM
The grade stuff depends a lot on the department. In some grad programs, anything other than an A is very uncommon. It isn't really grade inflation, it usually just means that grad students aren't actually being evaluated by grades.

That is the case here, anything less than an A is bad.  I do consider it grade inflation though, otherwise it should just be pass fail.  Further, grades are used as a major criteria to award scholarships, both internal and external.

Hegemony

Yes, of course you should respond to the student's email. It is just plain rude not to, and frustrating to the student. If you don't respond to the email, they don't learn anything except that you are either arrogant or disorganized.  It doesn't matter if they're not very bright — we don't only respond to and help the bright ones.  If anything, we should be helping the less bright ones more, should we not?  I have seen this approach before on the fora — "I consider the student's email stupid, therefore I am going to passive-aggressively refuse to respond to it" — which is as much as saying "I consider the student stupid, therefore I am going to retaliate by refusing to teach them."  Answer the email, explain the situation.  "Your participation score is less than the maximum because [whatever the reason is].  But since you got an A, it doesn't matter for your overall grade.  Have a good winter break."  I realize that your experience is that the student typically responds angrily.  (Although your own actions are so baffling to me that I might have responded angrily too.)  But even an angry student deserves to know enough to make improvements, even if their overall score is an A.  And since the student did not actually deserve the A, it is even more important to give the student sincere (but kind) feedback, because the next professor may grade honestly rather than generously.

backatit

Quote from: apostrophe on December 15, 2019, 12:25:10 PM
Quote from: the-tenure-track-prof on December 15, 2019, 10:45:18 AM
On a different note, I really like the grading policy about participation and contribution to class discussion. What about the meaningfulness of a student's contribution. For example student who thinks and pay attention then answer a question, versus a student who would read something from my PP slides in front of him in the classroom, read it to me as an answer. Do you grade participation for both the same way?

No, I don't. I take attendance at the start of each class, so everyone starts with a check. If by the end of class, they haven't spoken or have spoken but show little preparation (i.e., they basically just showed up), they get a 'minus' added. If they showed some engagement and preparation, no changes to their mark. If they really stood out to me--made excellent contributions--they get a 'plus' added. It takes seconds at the end of class or when I get back to my office.

To me those grades are: check plus/A, check/B, check minus/C. I could put letter grades down from the start, but the check system is fractionally easier.

Ok, then you do have some criteria - that's what I was trying to get a sense of. For my own students I have categories - attending meetings, participating in discussions, and contributing to assignments and notes, etc. (this is a particular type of class). And they can get % points for their contributions to each category. So it's pretty clear to them all semester where they need to step up their performance to improve.

One thing I've noticed when I'm talking to students is that we tend to have a additive approach to grading, whereas students seem to have a reductive approach. So we accumulate points to get a B, for example, when they will subtract points from 100 to get their grades. This almost always seems to result in an attitude that is counterproductive to learning - ie. "what did I "miss," not "what things did I do correctly to 'earn' these points?" As well, this contributes to grade inflation because it requires you to justify what you "took off" their grade rather than how they accumulated the points they did. I explain this grading philosophy to students at the beginning of class, and they don't always like it, but they do seem to understand the difference a little better. It's just one of those tricks I picked up along the way that seem to make things a little easier.

the-tenure-track-prof

" So it's pretty clear to them all semester where they need to step up their performance to improve.". When you say it is po clear to them ..., do you tell your students about how many points they earn for participating in each component?.
My approach to participation was based on attendance and quality of participation. That before ng said, now I am aware that for this level of students this might be vague because it is only handful of students who CAN make a real smart contribution instead of repeating lines be after me, reading from the slides or just starring at me. I didn't teach this type of students before and now I am learning to change my methods of teaching and evaluation with this population of students.
Thanks!.
Quote from: backatit on December 15, 2019, 02:34:17 PM
Quote from: apostrophe on December 15, 2019, 12:25:10 PM
Quote from: the-tenure-track-prof on December 15, 2019, 10:45:18 AM
On a different note, I really like the grading policy about participation and contribution to class discussion. What about the meaningfulness of a student's contribution. For example student who thinks and pay attention then answer a question, versus a student who would read something from my PP slides in front of him in the classroom, read it to me as an answer. Do you grade participation for both the same way?

No, I don't. I take attendance at the start of each class, so everyone starts with a check. If by the end of class, they haven't spoken or have spoken but show little preparation (i.e., they basically just showed up), they get a 'minus' added. If they showed some engagement and preparation, no changes to their mark. If they really stood out to me--made excellent contributions--they get a 'plus' added. It takes seconds at the end of class or when I get back to my office.

To me those grades are: check plus/A, check/B, check minus/C. I could put letter grades down from the start, but the check system is fractionally easier.

Ok, then you do have some criteria - that's what I was trying to get a sense of. For my own students I have categories - attending meetings, participating in discussions, and contributing to assignments and notes, etc. (this is a particular type of class). And they can get % points for their contributions to each category. So it's pretty clear to them all semester where they need to step up their performance to improve.

One thing I've noticed when I'm talking to students is that we tend to have a additive approach to grading, whereas students seem to have a reductive approach. So we accumulate points to get a B, for example, when they will subtract points from 100 to get their grades. This almost always seems to result in an attitude that is counterproductive to learning - ie. "what did I "miss," not "what things did I do correctly to 'earn' these points?" As well, this contributes to grade inflation because it requires you to justify what you "took off" their grade rather than how they accumulated the points they did. I explain this grading philosophy to students at the beginning of class, and they don't always like it, but they do seem to understand the difference a little better. It's just one of those tricks I picked up along the way that seem to make things a little easier.