Help with relationship with professor

[ziplock]

Hello:

I am a PhD candidate in the health sciences and I need advice on one professor I took a grad class with.

The professor and I work on opposite ends of the same campus and we do different work (we use different models) but we are in the same prog and so have somewhat frequent contact. He's tenured.

AFTER finishing his course (I got an A+), I started chatting with him more at our bi-monthly prog pizza and beer socials. And we discovered we like the same brewery, restaurants, sports team, books etc. We have definitely grown very close over the last 3 years, vent to each other, and go for dinner and movies alone. He also helps me with more academic stuff like applying for jobs, dealing with journals and editors, applying for money. I show him my paper drafts and he gives me feedback when I'm practising talks.

My relationship with him is platonic. He has never touched me except for a hand around the shoulder when we take photos or something similarly innocuous. I have never been to his house. He has been to mine but only to drop me off after dinner or the movies. I have never invited him in and he has never tried to get himself invited in. We text quite a bit but it's never inappropriate or suggestive. I introduce him to people as my professor and he introduces me as a student in the prog.

I'm applying for a postdoc soon. And given that he knows me better than even my own supervisor and he knows my work ethic, I have considered that he might be someone who can write me a letter.

The problem is: I'm worried about how it looks. We're both heterosexual and single. We go out alone off-campus and at night. He always pays for dinner because he doesn't think it's fair for a grad student to pay when she's earning a fraction of what he earns. He's older (late 50s), I'm younger (late 30s). We're obviously friendly and comfortable with each other. Not many people know we hang out but we've bumped into people we know from the prog when we're out before and they sometimes raise an eyebrow. I did ask him recently if he regularly does off-campus things with other students in the prog and he said no, adding that when he does, it's not with just one student.

IF I do ask him to write a ref letter and IF he says yes, would it look suspicious? Esp by people who've seen us outside together? Would people think I'm just "that ambitious student" who f***ed her older professor in exchange for an A+ and letter?

This is a professor I value very much in my life and I don't want to lose this relationship I've built with him but the optics really bother me.

What do you think?

Thank you.

[Myword]

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I see no reason why you should not ask him to write letters. It is part of his job. Keep things very platonic. Why are you suspicious of people finding out? He will write a great letter and you are fortunate.  He can probably read your facial expressions and body language, so he knows whether you are into him, and you can tell with him. I advise being alert and careful with that.

It seems odd to me that you share the same likes and dislikes. Could it be that he is agreeing with you just to be nice and encourage this bond?

[miss jane marple]

And given that he knows me better than even my own supervisor and he knows my work ethic, I have considered that he might be someone who can write me a letter.

If this is why you want him to write you a letter, how will he explain that he knows so much about you? Probably he has enough sense not to say "I have been dating this student for 3 years and know everything about them."

Can you look at this situation and say with certainty that the reason you want him to write the letter is NOT to somehow formalize or publicize your relationship? To mark your territory, so to speak? Nowhere in the OP does it mention an intimate relationship with anyone else. How you would feel if tomorrow you found out he was spending time with another, younger graduate student in the same ways he has entertained you. Just a shrug and "so what"? Not asking you to answer here, just to take a different view. Opportunity cost can be applied to relationships as well as finances.

[Ruralguy]

I advise against doing this, but why not just discuss it with him generally to see what he thinks?

[ciao_yall]

He is a professional friend and mentor to you. He would be a perfect person to write a letter for you.

If you were both heterosexual, single and the professor was a woman, you wouldn't give it a second thought.

[spork]

Wouldn't a postdoc application be stronger with more than one letter? So you ask both him and your supervisor. He's been a mentor.

Why worry about how a letter from him "looks"? The men applying for postdocs don't worry about this. They aim for sending in the strongest applications.

The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.

[Kron3007]

The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.

Yeah, I find it hard to believe that's not the case as well (although I don't know why white needs to be in the dedcription...).  Personally, if I were him, I would be very reluctant to do this just because of the optics of it.  I find it hard to imagine him taking such a risk unless he has other things in mind.

Perhaps Spork and I are off base, but most people would definitely make the same assumptions.

[ziplock]

Can you look at this situation and say with certainty that the reason you want him to write the letter is NOT to somehow formalize or publicize your relationship? To mark your territory, so to speak? Nowhere in the OP does it mention an intimate relationship with anyone else. How you would feel if tomorrow you found out he was spending time with another, younger graduate student in the same ways he has entertained you. Just a shrug and "so what"? Not asking you to answer here, just to take a different view. Opportunity cost can be applied to relationships as well as finances.

I would actually feel SO MUCH BETTER if he was spending a lot of time with another grad student because it sometimes looks like I'm his special someone from the outside and I'm not!

I asked him once if it was normal for faculty to spend one on one time with students and if he does it with the other students and he said he's seen several faculty spend a lot of one on one time with their students (both different and same sexual orientation and gender pairs). He did say he rarely hangs out with other students alone though.

[ziplock]

If you were both heterosexual, single and the professor was a woman, you wouldn't give it a second thought.

That is 100% correct many times over.

[ziplock]

Wouldn't a postdoc application be stronger with more than one letter? So you ask both him and your supervisor. He's been a mentor.

Why worry about how a letter from him "looks"? The men applying for postdocs don't worry about this. They aim for sending in the strongest applications.

The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.

Yeah, I find it hard to believe that's not the case as well (although I don't know why white needs to be in the dedcription...).  Personally, if I were him, I would be very reluctant to do this just because of the optics of it.  I find it hard to imagine him taking such a risk unless he has other things in mind.

Perhaps Spork and I are off base, but most people would definitely make the same assumptions.

This is why I worry about how it "looks". I know the men who apply won't worry about the optics but they rarely ever have to. As a woman, I know I always have to go above and beyond to prove that I am worthy of the same position. And I want to make sure I don't submit a postdoc job application that people will treat as her letter writer is in her pants when he really isn't.

I will be getting letters from both my supervisors and am looking for a third in case it's needed. And he seems like he could be that third.

If he is really thinking about getting in my pants even if he doesn't act on it, jesus, I need counseling.

(How'd you know he's white? I never mentioned that.)

It seems odd to me that you share the same likes and dislikes. Could it be that he is agreeing with you just to be nice and encourage this bond?

I don't know for sure. But it's a lot of work pretending to agree for 3 years when you don't need to!

[writingprof]

(How'd you know he's white? I never mentioned that.)

The reason Spork "knows" he's white is that, in the world of this thread, your professor-mentor is the villain. Spork's phrase "old straight white guy" is merely a series of pejoratives underlining that fact.

[Kron3007]

If you were both heterosexual, single and the professor was a woman, you wouldn't give it a second thought.

That is 100% correct many times over.

It would still be a little weird.  The potential problem with getting an LOR here is that if you are friends outside of the university, it could be seen as a conflict of interest.  His objectivity could be compromised, even if he were female...a conflict of interest need not be sexual.

Also, I would argue that this would be just as weird if the sexes were reversed.  I am male and had a female advisor, and am sure it would have raised just as many eyebrows if we (or me and another female faculty member) had been going your to see movies alone. 

[ziplock]

It would still be a little weird.  The potential problem with getting an LOR here is that if you are friends outside of the university, it could be seen as a conflict of interest.  His objectivity could be compromised, even if he were female...a conflict of interest need not be sexual.

Good point. I guess the safest thing for me to do would be to just not ask for an LOR. The integrity of the content cannot be called into question that way. Looks like I'm looking for a different third writer.

[eigen]

If you were both heterosexual, single and the professor was a woman, you wouldn't give it a second thought.

That is 100% correct many times over.

It would still be a little weird.  The potential problem with getting an LOR here is that if you are friends outside of the university, it could be seen as a conflict of interest.  His objectivity could be compromised, even if he were female...a conflict of interest need not be sexual.

Also, I would argue that this would be just as weird if the sexes were reversed.  I am male and had a female advisor, and am sure it would have raised just as many eyebrows if we (or me and another female faculty member) had been going your to see movies alone.

I mean, I'd say I was friends outside of the university with most of my letter writers for faculty jobs. My advisor was the only one who I wasn't really friendly with outside of work. My department chair/mentor in my first job was definitely a friend outside of work, and still is- they wrote me a letter. A faculty member in my graduate department who was on my committee and an informal mentor, who I would drink with regularly outside of work wrote me a letter.

Having mentors who you maintain personal relationships isn't a bad thing, and I'd say it's relatively common (at least in my field) for letter writers to be people who *are* friends with the people they're writing letters for.

I'd say go for it. In addition to the personal, non-work relationship they've also worked extensively with you on academic things (writing, article submission, etc.) and seem to be in a good place to talk about those as an academic mentor.

[the-tenure-track-prof]

You may like to be careful with him because as it was stated he clearly wants something else from you. This is not uncommon in academia among older single faculty members. The easiest way for any male faculty to develop a sexual relationship would be with someone who the faculty have some "power" over. Since he is not your mentor he also thinks that he can get away with developing a sexual relationship with you and then ending it for one reason or another or without any clear reason. If this is what you are looking for then there is no harm in "going out at night" with him and letting him pay for dinners. If you are considering an academic career and would like to be respected, I would advise you to gradually cool it off with him and get busy with your future plans. He knows that you are leaving soon so he is not thinking to build a serious relationship with you. However, it all depends on what you are looking for.