Help with relationship with professor

[Ruralguy]

Who the heck knows what he wants. You could just go with the flow and continue to do what you are doing and also ask for the letter. Or you could continue but not ask for the letter, discontinue and ask for the letter, or forget both.
The additional option would be just discuss it all openly, which is probably healthiest.

[spork]

[. . .]

This is why I worry about how it "looks". I know the men who apply won't worry about the optics but they rarely ever have to. As a woman, I know I always have to go above and beyond to prove that I am worthy of the same position. And I want to make sure I don't submit a postdoc job application that people will treat as her letter writer is in her pants when he really isn't.

[. . .]

Is your field so small and incestuous that all faculty at all universities with postdoc positions are going to know that the two of you spend a lot of time together?

[spork]

(How'd you know he's white? I never mentioned that.)

The reason Spork "knows" he's white is that, in the world of this thread, your professor-mentor is the villain. Spork's phrase "old straight white guy" is merely a series of pejoratives underlining that fact.

I resemble that remark.

[ziplock]

You may like to be careful with him because as it was stated he clearly wants something else from you. This is not uncommon in academia among older single faculty members. The easiest way for any male faculty to develop a sexual relationship would be with someone who the faculty have some "power" over.

If this is what you are looking for then there is no harm in "going out at night" with him and letting him pay for dinners. If you are considering an academic career and would like to be respected, I would advise you to gradually cool it off with him and get busy with your future plans.

Jesus. I feel so stupid that I didn't ever even consider that he might have ulterior motives. I always figured faculty who wanted to get into a student's pants would have plenty to pick from that were younger and cuter.

I wish I had family who did this academic thing - I'm first gen, grew up working class - to talk to about what faculty and student relationships are like typically.

[spork]

Typically they don't involve getting into each other's pants.

I'm first gen, etc., and was pretty clueless about the power dynamics in graduate school and academia. I never heard of any faculty pursuing relationships with students while in my PhD program, but I'm a guy. Over the last few years there's been some pretty egregious cases of serial harassers/abusers/predators.

It could be that this guy is just socially clueless like a lot of academics. But I doubt it.

[Hegemony]

Asking for a letter of recommendation is fine.  What is not fine is going out to dinner and the movies together.  What were you thinking??  Why would this not "read," and in fact be, weird and compromising?  And he even pays for you?  I'm gathering you want it to be romantic?  Because it definitely reads as if you want it to be romantic.  The fact that he has not made a move physically does not mean that it is not, at the moment, everything but physical.  Both of you are playing with fire here, and both of you should stop.  You need to get a new confidant, and you should say to him, "I've really appreciated the chance to hang out, but you know, the optics aren't so good, so I'm going to cut back" — and then stop it entirely, no matter what he says.  And he may well be angry and there goes one of your references.  But that's the price you pay for this kind of playing with fire.  So cut it out right now.

[ciao_yall]

Wouldn't a postdoc application be stronger with more than one letter? So you ask both him and your supervisor. He's been a mentor.

Why worry about how a letter from him "looks"? The men applying for postdocs don't worry about this. They aim for sending in the strongest applications.

The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.

This comment is disgusting an inappropriate and spork is a big crybaby for getting my response deleted.

[clean]

How it looks to who (or whom?).

Will the people that get the letters know you?  Will they know your mentor?  Will they be so familiar with you to know your social habits? 

He may be able to write a good letter. Ask him and see if he is willing. IF he knows the people that will get the letter he would know and could let you know if he is able (or not able ) to provide you a letter of reference/recommendation.

for what it is worth.

[spork]

Wouldn't a postdoc application be stronger with more than one letter? So you ask both him and your supervisor. He's been a mentor.

Why worry about how a letter from him "looks"? The men applying for postdocs don't worry about this. They aim for sending in the strongest applications.

The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.

This comment is disgusting an inappropriate and spork is a big crybaby for getting my response deleted.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[ziplock]

Asking for a letter of recommendation is fine.  What is not fine is going out to dinner and the movies together.  What were you thinking??  Why would this not "read," and in fact be, weird and compromising?  And he even pays for you?  I'm gathering you want it to be romantic?  Because it definitely reads as if you want it to be romantic.  The fact that he has not made a move physically does not mean that it is not, at the moment, everything but physical.  Both of you are playing with fire here, and both of you should stop.  You need to get a new confidant, and you should say to him, "I've really appreciated the chance to hang out, but you know, the optics aren't so good, so I'm going to cut back" — and then stop it entirely, no matter what he says.  And he may well be angry and there goes one of your references.  But that's the price you pay for this kind of playing with fire.  So cut it out right now.

I absolutely do not want it to be romantic and that's why I'm asking for advice. And it appears clear in this thread that people would be suspicious.

FWIW, he's helped me with funding and papers and in all, he has no role in the review process like it's an external funding application through private foundations and papers in a different immediate area. Pretend example: we are both in agriculture and interested in the environment. I work with soil chemical compositions and he works with historical changes in government agriculture policies. We publish in different journals. But there is overlap in the people we know and work with. And I have never asked him for an LOR so there's been no compromise there.

You and rest have given me much to think about because the last thing I want is a romantic relationship or perception of one with somebody I consider to be a mentor and professional who has been so helpful with my work work! Thank you!

[Kron3007]

If you were both heterosexual, single and the professor was a woman, you wouldn't give it a second thought.

That is 100% correct many times over.

It would still be a little weird.  The potential problem with getting an LOR here is that if you are friends outside of the university, it could be seen as a conflict of interest.  His objectivity could be compromised, even if he were female...a conflict of interest need not be sexual.

Also, I would argue that this would be just as weird if the sexes were reversed.  I am male and had a female advisor, and am sure it would have raised just as many eyebrows if we (or me and another female faculty member) had been going your to see movies alone.

I mean, I'd say I was friends outside of the university with most of my letter writers for faculty jobs. My advisor was the only one who I wasn't really friendly with outside of work. My department chair/mentor in my first job was definitely a friend outside of work, and still is- they wrote me a letter. A faculty member in my graduate department who was on my committee and an informal mentor, who I would drink with regularly outside of work wrote me a letter.

Having mentors who you maintain personal relationships isn't a bad thing, and I'd say it's relatively common (at least in my field) for letter writers to be people who *are* friends with the people they're writing letters for.

I'd say go for it. In addition to the personal, non-work relationship they've also worked extensively with you on academic things (writing, article submission, etc.) and seem to be in a good place to talk about those as an academic mentor.

Yeah, the lines are fuzzy and I wouldn't rule out asking them, but there is potential conflict of interest.  The odd beer here and there is one thing, but if you are regularly hanging out is becomes a bit of an issue, at least in principle.  In this case, the fact that he is always paying etc., Really sets off alarm bells to me, even though the reasoning is sound.

I have seen students and post docs end up marrying their PIs too, but that doesn't mean it didn't cross all sorts of lines

[ciao_yall]

Wouldn't a postdoc application be stronger with more than one letter? So you ask both him and your supervisor. He's been a mentor.

Why worry about how a letter from him "looks"? The men applying for postdocs don't worry about this. They aim for sending in the strongest applications.

The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.

This comment is disgusting an inappropriate and spork is a big crybaby for getting my response deleted.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I responded to your comment. Then fast_and_bulbous deleted it and threatened to ban me.

[fast_and_bulbous]

If you have a question about a moderator action, take it to PM.

[mr_spicoli]

I teach at a cc, so I can't claim to be a uni professor.  But I am an old, single, male, hetero, white guy.  If any of you think this guy has been working ziplock for three years to get in her pants, you are out of your minds. Three years??  If any of you find pants so worth getting into that I'd work it for three years, please send the unicorn to me.

[marwyn]

It would still be a little weird.  The potential problem with getting an LOR here is that if you are friends outside of the university, it could be seen as a conflict of interest.  His objectivity could be compromised, even if he were female...a conflict of interest need not be sexual.

That's exactly my point.

I know, every situation is different... However, I once was in a situation that I got a very good recommendation from my friend (who's a faculty member) about a student who wanted to work with me. They were actually a couple, but I thought "Who knows the student better? Well... maybe my friend is a little biased, but the recommendation is probably genuine and valuable". I was certainly right about one thing - my friend was genuine. They were massively biased though and working with the student turned out to be nightmare. Well, I'm still friends with that faculty member. I am just convinced now that I wouldn't like to get a letter of reference from someone who has a close personal relationship with the candidate (no matter if they are a couple or just good friends).

The bottom line is that someone who has a very close personal relationship with the candidate is usually not entirely objective. Subconsciously, they will want to help their friend and in the end, I want to learn a bit how the candidate works and behaves at work and not really if that's a great person to go for a beer or watch a movie together.