Help with relationship with professor

[nescafe]

Those who are saying there is nothing wrong with this and it shouldn't be a concern are missing one big point: there isn't anything wrong here, but that doesn't mean it won't cause concerns for OP. The biggest problem I see is that the people who receive LoRs are often sexist, too. In other words, the optics are a problem, and they will hurt the OP, not the professor.

I tend to think supervisors who go out for movies with supervisees are trouble, personally (regardless of gender, it's pretty irresponsible). But if the relationship is platonic, I believe the OP.

Still, for the sake of protecting your career trajectory, I'd advise that yes, get your letter of recommendation! But also, assert some social boundaries with this supervisor. Meet for meals on campus. Don't hang out with him off-campus, alone. Simple, and it will protect you from some of the rumor-mongering that is the inevitable result of being young and female in this business.

[writingprof]

This whole thread is ridiculous.  The OP has a platonic relationship with a mentor who has done nothing inappropriate.  Yes, the OP should use the letter.  No, the OP shouldn't assume that the mentor wants to #&%$ her. 

I swear, the sex panic coming from the left these days is really quite obnoxious.

[ciao_yall]

This whole thread is ridiculous.  The OP has a platonic relationship with a mentor who has done nothing inappropriate.  Yes, the OP should use the letter.  No, the OP shouldn't assume that the mentor wants to #&%$ her. 

I swear, the sex panic coming from the left these days is really quite obnoxious.

Or the right, like Mike Pence refusing to be alone with women when his wife isn't present.

[pigou]

This whole thread is ridiculous.  The OP has a platonic relationship with a mentor who has done nothing inappropriate.  Yes, the OP should use the letter.  No, the OP shouldn't assume that the mentor wants to #&%$ her.

This.

The recipients of the letter almost surely have no clue what the two are doing in the evenings and even if they did, they almost surely wouldn't care. Letters of recommendation are never unbiased summaries of the strengths and weaknesses of a candidate anyway: they're supposed to be glowing endorsements (outside of economics, at least). The only risk in this letter is that it risks emphasizing the OP's "warmth" and other personal characteristics, which is a trap writers for women applicants often fall into: the letter really should emphasize academic skills and contributions.

And a professor maintaining a platonic relationship for 3 years in hopes of hooking up with someone right before she leaves for a postdoc? You guys really need to get your minds out of the gutter. Men and women are perfectly capable of having friendships. There are enough undergrads with a professor fantasy that he doesn't need to wait that long if he doesn't care about potential fallout, which I doubt would be any higher than with a grad student who's planning to stay in academia.

[ciao_yall]

If you have a question about a moderator action, take it to PM.

If you have a concern about demanding to maintain the privileged, id-driven male gaze... just keep it to yourself.

[Kron3007]

This whole thread is ridiculous.  The OP has a platonic relationship with a mentor who has done nothing inappropriate.  Yes, the OP should use the letter.  No, the OP shouldn't assume that the mentor wants to #&%$ her.

This.

The recipients of the letter almost surely have no clue what the two are doing in the evenings and even if they did, they almost surely wouldn't care. Letters of recommendation are never unbiased summaries of the strengths and weaknesses of a candidate anyway: they're supposed to be glowing endorsements (outside of economics, at least). The only risk in this letter is that it risks emphasizing the OP's "warmth" and other personal characteristics, which is a trap writers for women applicants often fall into: the letter really should emphasize academic skills and contributions.

And a professor maintaining a platonic relationship for 3 years in hopes of hooking up with someone right before she leaves for a postdoc? You guys really need to get your minds out of the gutter. Men and women are perfectly capable of having friendships. There are enough undergrads with a professor fantasy that he doesn't need to wait that long if he doesn't care about potential fallout, which I doubt would be any higher than with a grad student who's planning to stay in academia.

Well, I don't think they have been playing the long game in hopes of hooking up now, but I suspect they had hopes the whole time.  Just because he hasn't acted dosnt mean he didnt want it to happen.   Yes, men and women can be friends, but I don't usually take my friends out on dates, which is what these sound like.  I could be wrong and this guy has no interest, but I still think he does.

[eigen]

This whole thread is ridiculous.  The OP has a platonic relationship with a mentor who has done nothing inappropriate.  Yes, the OP should use the letter.  No, the OP shouldn't assume that the mentor wants to #&%$ her.

This.

The recipients of the letter almost surely have no clue what the two are doing in the evenings and even if they did, they almost surely wouldn't care. Letters of recommendation are never unbiased summaries of the strengths and weaknesses of a candidate anyway: they're supposed to be glowing endorsements (outside of economics, at least). The only risk in this letter is that it risks emphasizing the OP's "warmth" and other personal characteristics, which is a trap writers for women applicants often fall into: the letter really should emphasize academic skills and contributions.

And a professor maintaining a platonic relationship for 3 years in hopes of hooking up with someone right before she leaves for a postdoc? You guys really need to get your minds out of the gutter. Men and women are perfectly capable of having friendships. There are enough undergrads with a professor fantasy that he doesn't need to wait that long if he doesn't care about potential fallout, which I doubt would be any higher than with a grad student who's planning to stay in academia.

Well, I don't think they have been playing the long game in hopes of hooking up now, but I suspect they had hopes the whole time.  Just because he hasn't acted dosnt mean he didnt want it to happen.   Yes, men and women can be friends, but I don't usually take my friends out on dates, which is what these sound like.  I could be wrong and this guy has no interest, but I still think he does.

Depends how you define dates, but I certainly do. I go out to dinner and movies with friends and colleagues of both the same and opposite sex. They're friends. I pay for them when they're making less than I do too, as well. And they often pay for me when they do.

To me, a date implies romantic interest, not some specific set of activities. So if the OP is in a platonic relationship, they aren't dates.

[ziplock]

To be honest, the first and only time the thought even entered my head that he was trying to get into my pants is after I posted on this thread. And I did panic. And now I feel so bad because he has never been inappropriate. I've never been inappropriate with him either. Even when we've both been drinking. Either of us could have tried jumping the other when we were tipsy (if sex was what we wanted from each other) but we never did.

I'll make an appointment to talk to him at his office about whether a ref letter is even a possibility and if it's appropriate. And if it is, what are the limits of the content. I'll definitely raise the issue of "warmth" and personal characteristics that @pigou talked about. We have this unspoken rule that if it's work-related, we meet at the office and when we meet outside, we only do non-work stuff. So we complain about a reviewer's unfair review in the office and complain that the Canucks played a bad game at dinner. It's worked well so far and hopefully, it'll work well for this too.

Please continue to share your opinions and thoughts. They have all been very helpful to me. Thank you.

[Caracal]

Well, I don't think they have been playing the long game in hopes of hooking up now, but I suspect they had hopes the whole time.  Just because he hasn't acted dosnt mean he didnt want it to happen.   Yes, men and women can be friends, but I don't usually take my friends out on dates, which is what these sound like.  I could be wrong and this guy has no interest, but I still think he does.

Depends how you define dates, but I certainly do. I go out to dinner and movies with friends and colleagues of both the same and opposite sex. They're friends. I pay for them when they're making less than I do too, as well. And they often pay for me when they do.

To me, a date implies romantic interest, not some specific set of activities. So if the OP is in a platonic relationship, they aren't dates.
[/quote]

Yeah, this seems like an odd notion. A lot of this just has to do with where people are in their lives at a particular moment. Right now my life is organized in a way that I don't often have one on one activities with friends (probably something I should try to do more of...) but at various times in my life I have. A lot of these were times when my partner was out of town for extended periods and there was someone else around who also had time on their hands and wanted company. Over the years there have been quite a few people of both genders who I started regularly having drinks or dinner with, or even going over to their house and cooking together. It sounds like you and this guy just are filling a role in each other's lives and it doesn't seem nefarious at all to me.

[Hegemony]

It may not be nefarious or seem nefarious, but the power difference means that it is something to steer clear of.  First, a lot of inappropriate relationships start out as appropriate ones, and then just slide into something inappropriate, either because of the lack of boundaries of one or another of the parties, or because the closeness just makes the participants lose perspective on what is appropriate. Palsy relationships between superiors and subordinates are verboten for a reason, whether in academia, in management, or what have you.  The second reasons is that even if there is nothing untoward and sexual going on, there is the appearance that there might be — which can poison the atmosphere in various ways.  It doesn't make either party look better.  And even without something sexual going on, there can easily be an appearance of favoritism.  If he has to give you a bad grade, will he?  If someone asks which student from the department should get the top-student award, is he going to be studiously neutral in his assessments?  If you confide that you're having trouble with so-and-so aspect of your work, is he going to put that knowledge aside when someone asks for the name of a promising, confident candidate for X? The blurring of boundaries opens the door to all kinds of inquities, both advantageous and disadvantageous.  I am a little surprised that this should be news to the OP, but especially dismayed that these issues have apparently never occurred to the faculty member in questions.  All faculty should be vigilantly mindful of these things.

[marwyn]

...  And even without something sexual going on, there can easily be an appearance of favoritism...  If someone asks which student from the department should get the top-student award, is he going to be studiously neutral in his assessments? ...

This is exactly what I mean.

Will the recipients of the letter know about this platonic relationship? Most likely not. Would they like to get a LOR from a senior faculty member involved in such a platonic relationship? Well, probably some don't care... I wouldn't like to get one, but how would I know? It's not a big deal, really, but there is a potential problem with it.

As some implied, the best thing to do is talk about it openly with the faculty member.

[Kron3007]

This whole thread is ridiculous.  The OP has a platonic relationship with a mentor who has done nothing inappropriate.  Yes, the OP should use the letter.  No, the OP shouldn't assume that the mentor wants to #&%$ her.

This.

The recipients of the letter almost surely have no clue what the two are doing in the evenings and even if they did, they almost surely wouldn't care. Letters of recommendation are never unbiased summaries of the strengths and weaknesses of a candidate anyway: they're supposed to be glowing endorsements (outside of economics, at least). The only risk in this letter is that it risks emphasizing the OP's "warmth" and other personal characteristics, which is a trap writers for women applicants often fall into: the letter really should emphasize academic skills and contributions.

And a professor maintaining a platonic relationship for 3 years in hopes of hooking up with someone right before she leaves for a postdoc? You guys really need to get your minds out of the gutter. Men and women are perfectly capable of having friendships. There are enough undergrads with a professor fantasy that he doesn't need to wait that long if he doesn't care about potential fallout, which I doubt would be any higher than with a grad student who's planning to stay in academia.

Well, I don't think they have been playing the long game in hopes of hooking up now, but I suspect they had hopes the whole time.  Just because he hasn't acted dosnt mean he didnt want it to happen.   Yes, men and women can be friends, but I don't usually take my friends out on dates, which is what these sound like.  I could be wrong and this guy has no interest, but I still think he does.

Depends how you define dates, but I certainly do. I go out to dinner and movies with friends and colleagues of both the same and opposite sex. They're friends. I pay for them when they're making less than I do too, as well. And they often pay for me when they do.

To me, a date implies romantic interest, not some specific set of activities. So if the OP is in a platonic relationship, they aren't dates.

True.  This could be completely platonic on both sides, but he could also be hoping for more, only one person knows the answer to this.  Most times I see things that look fishy, I end up seeing fish, but this could be an exception.

However, it is quite obvious that the appearance of this would raise eyebrows.  I think the OP is safe to use them as a reference as the people reading them will not know any of these details, but the letter would be biased in a way it should not be (but this is a pretty minor situation).

[ziplock]

If he has to give you a bad grade, will he?  If someone asks which student from the department should get the top-student award, is he going to be studiously neutral in his assessments?  If you confide that you're having trouble with so-and-so aspect of your work, is he going to put that knowledge aside when someone asks for the name of a promising, confident candidate for X? The blurring of boundaries opens the door to all kinds of inquities, both advantageous and disadvantageous.  I am a little surprised that this should be news to the OP, but especially dismayed that these issues have apparently never occurred to the faculty member in questions.  All faculty should be vigilantly mindful of these things.

I'm done with course work and so giving me a bad grade is out of the question. I only started getting to know him as a person months after I took his class because we started chatting at our programs's twice a month pizza and beer nights.

The rest of the points are well taken. For the last 3 years that we've hung out, I haven't applied for anything inside the department, program, and university so there has been no favouritism or dis-favouritism there. I can't say whether he would bat for me or against me if I were to go up for something of if he would just recuse himself altogether as the issue hasn't come up. I suspect he will be quite fair either way (He has told me when my works sucks. He doesn't mollycoddle and try and make me feel better. But he also tells me when I do something well. And I respect him for being honest both ways) but I can't swear on it.

[Wahoo Redux]

This thread has been genuinely interesting, in part because it illustrates the tremendously complicated and fraught nature of academic relationships.  How did our world get so byzantine and inhuman?  Or maybe it always was...

None of us can know what this relationship really is unless we know Ziplock and her friend / paramour / good-idea / bad-idea / mentor / colleague / letter-writer personally----and then we'd need to know them pretty well. 

If Ziplock is genuine and not a brilliant troll (forgive me Ziplock if you are for real) it is not impossible that her mentor is in the midst of some unusual but viable conflict:

***i.e. he is in love with Ziplock and knows that any romantic overtures will end the relationship;
***he truly wants to try romance but, because of whatever hang-up, cannot force himself to make the first move;
***he just wants a friend and, for whatever reason, he is immune to the typical older-white-male-gaze-ID reaction we expect.  Are you sure, Ziplock, that your friend likes girls?

If the mentor is just a friend and ultimately just wants friendship, I would expect him to do a "group thing" sometime such as "Hey, Prof. Mellon and Prof. Dinglehoffer and I are gonna catch a flick, want to tag along?" Incorporating one's platonic friends into an existing friend group is fairly common.  Or perhaps he understands the optics and avoids other faculty when in the company of Ziplock outside of the beer-and-pizza bashes.

Ziplock, does your friend have other friends he regularly hangs with or are you perhaps filling a loneliness void somehow?

[Hegemony]

He may have the most integrity of anyone ever. Although from what's been described, I have my doubts about his maturity level, because he is playing with fire in multiple ways.  But even if plays straight by everyone, how is anyone to be sure of that?  If I know this is going on, and I have to ask him for an assessment of Ziplock, and he says Ziplock is a fine scholar and will make a fine professional, how am I to know if that assessment is unbiased?  I have certainly seen cases where a similar close friendship (or more) is going on and the prof acts unbiased, and maybe even believes they are, but looking back at the situation, certainly bias was going on, and I don't think better of either party in retrospect.  And the students get extra help, advice, and support in landing positions, and I don't blame others from protesting, "What do I have to do, cozy up to a professor?  Because I didn't do the favoritism thing, I'm one down in the hierarchy?"  That kind of resentment, warranted or not, can poison a career.  I am somewhat gobsmacked that these issues haven't occurred to the OP, and of course very unimpressed that these issues haven't occurred to the prof in question, or that if they have, he's put them aside in favor of his own desire to be bill-paying pals with women lower in the hierarchy.  I even wonder if this is a troll, the situation is so obviously egregious.  Whether or no, for all who are tempted into similar relationships, there are the warning bells, there are the red flags.