Help with relationship with professor

[writingprof]

I, for one, am having trouble reconciling the politics of this thread.  I mean, presumably you all hate Mike Pence and the "Pence Rule," but it seems that most of you also instinctively dislike the OP's mentor.  Why?  Is it really just that he's white and old? 

[Kron3007]

I, for one, am having trouble reconciling the politics of this thread.  I mean, presumably you all hate Mike Pence and the "Pence Rule," but it seems that most of you also instinctively dislike the OP's mentor.  Why?  Is it really just that he's white and old?

Talk about apples and oranges.  Having a meal with a member of the opposite sex as part of your job is quite different than having a long term relationship outside of work with someone and then using them as a professional reference.  That being said, I don't have any hatred toward the OP or the faculty member, although I suspect he has other interests and see this as a (small) conflict of interest.

[mamselle]

The thing about being scholars who appreciate witty remarks and the occasional display of well-crafted wit In discourse is that we have to remember the human side of our discourse and rein in the wit when it has the potential to hurt someone.

I agree, Wahoo's post was very funny and well-written, but it might have been better posted on the 'Asides' thread.

There is a serious component in this thread which is being overlooked, and that is that innocence, a certain measure of unwitting ignorance, and simple human need can get people entangled in things that create certain levels of confusion as they progress.

When something like the need for an unbiased letter heaves its head up in what has been a pleasant, unstressed ocean of calm connection, the sudden need to define things that were going on pleasantly undefined can be a shock to that pleasant system.

I was also raised to think well of people, work towards best ends, and base my expectations of others on the belief that they were doing the same. In my case it landed me in an abusive marriage because I had no idea of what to look for. Thankfully, the OP's situation is less dire.

But they are being brought up against this sudden wall of confusion that they might--but also, reasonably, might not--have foreseen or realized earlier as they went down that pleasant path. There are really two crises going on at once: one is the momentary question of whether to seek a reference letter from someone (In this case, I'd probably avoid doing that if possible: optics for younger females are still a minefield and you don't need that potential complication going forward). The other is the feeling of being brought up short by the larger question of defining a relationship that has seemed like something pleasant and non-threatening that didn't need definition: in fact,, a loss-of-innocence thing.

I can be as cynical as the next one, but I happen to think that innocence is a precious, tender commodity that should not be ripped at and torn away when it needs to be shed in some specific setting. When someone trusts you to share a crisis that involves its loss, I'm in favor of respecting the person who maintained the courage to go on in their innocence as long as they could.

Human beauty in behaviour is a rare thing, and even if (as it may, rightly, here, I think, need to be abandoned, either because, optics, or because the situation may have run its course) that's a hard thing to do alone. We're being asked, respectfully, for wisdom on the issue.

The least we can do is be respectful in return.

M.

[nescafe]

I, for one, am having trouble reconciling the politics of this thread.  I mean, presumably you all hate Mike Pence and the "Pence Rule," but it seems that most of you also instinctively dislike the OP's mentor.  Why?  Is it really just that he's white and old?

You're not known for your exercise in good faith debate when it comes to this topic, but here goes: it's not appropriate for faculty mentors to maintain close personal relationships with their students. It's a blurring of the hierarchical boundaries that exist in the mentoring relationship, and it puts the student in a potentially difficult space of having the navigate "optics," socially injure their mentor, or risk retaliation for non-academic reasons. No, it's not purely about sex, but it is often the case that advisors that push for these blurry relationships are also sexual harassers.

Reading only what OP reports in this thread, I don't see evidence of sexual harassment or tension. But that doesn't mean the advisor hasn't crossed a line they shouldn't have. That the OP is questioning themselves is one natural manifestation of the problem. It's the least toxic outcome of a poor mentorship style... but it's still a toxic outcome that could easily have been avoided.

TLDR: they are students, not buddies. Trying to make them buddies is usually about the advisor's ego, and that is toxic.

[writingprof]

I, for one, am having trouble reconciling the politics of this thread.  I mean, presumably you all hate Mike Pence and the "Pence Rule," but it seems that most of you also instinctively dislike the OP's mentor.  Why?  Is it really just that he's white and old?

You're not known for your exercise in good faith debate when it comes to this topic, but here goes: it's not appropriate for faculty mentors to maintain close personal relationships with their students. It's a blurring of the hierarchical boundaries that exist in the mentoring relationship, and it puts the student in a potentially difficult space of having the navigate "optics," socially injure their mentor, or risk retaliation for non-academic reasons. No, it's not purely about sex, but it is often the case that advisors that push for these blurry relationships are also sexual harassers.

Reading only what OP reports in this thread, I don't see evidence of sexual harassment or tension. But that doesn't mean the advisor hasn't crossed a line they shouldn't have. That the OP is questioning themselves is one natural manifestation of the problem. It's the least toxic outcome of a poor mentorship style... but it's still a toxic outcome that could easily have been avoided.

TLDR: they are students, not buddies. Trying to make them buddies is usually about the advisor's ego, and that is toxic.

Your ideology exhausts me.

[marshwiggle]

Reading only what OP reports in this thread, I don't see evidence of sexual harassment or tension. But that doesn't mean the advisor hasn't crossed a line they shouldn't have. That the OP is questioning themselves is one natural manifestation of the problem. It's the least toxic outcome of a poor mentorship style... but it's still a toxic outcome that could easily have been avoided.

Regardless of whether one thinks the actions of the prof in the OP's case were completely OK or not, I think calling it "toxic" is an overstatement based on everything the OP has said.

[Hegemony]

Let's call it "potentially problematic," in optics and after-effects, even if, unusually, not problematic at the time.

[Ruralguy]

I more or less agree with Hegemony, but only partially because of optics. I think the more serious issue even if you think the relationship  is fine (whatever it might be and regardless of whether or not anyone ever had a sexual thought) Is that there is a glaring conflict of interest. In general, I don't think close friends should be writing letters of reference for each other. Since it's likely not ever going to be spotted by anybody, this is more about adherence to unenforceable standards than it is about doing anything horribly wrong.

[nescafe]

Regardless of whether one thinks the actions of the prof in the OP's case were completely OK or not, I think calling it "toxic" is an overstatement based on everything the OP has said.

Point taken. My argument was mostly that the professor in this equation has a poor mentorship style, and it's exposing his student to possible issues. A truly inclusive mentorship practice would look a lot more structured than this, even if the result is less chummy.

[AJ_Katz]

Getting back to the OP...

For one, I question how common it is these days for people to request LOR's and/or call references for postdoc candidates.  I've agreed to be a reference for several people applying for postdocs and jobs and I've only twice gotten a phone call (so maybe a 10% response rate at best).  Perhaps the health sciences is different than the STEM fields I'm allied with.  Nevertheless, it's possible the risk here is small, and really need not be given a second thought by the OP. 

The second thing I think might need to be questioned is what you've said here: 

IF I do ask him to write a ref letter and IF he says yes, would it look suspicious? Esp by people who've seen us outside together? Would people think I'm just "that ambitious student" who f***ed her older professor in exchange for an A+ and letter?

I think you have have been wildly misinformed.  When I am serving as a reference, I usually have no clue about who else the candidate has listed as a reference (unless I was the person who gave them advice on who they should select).  And how would any professor know that you got an A+ in a class other than one of their own?  Grades are confidential, so if I was your reference, there would be no way for me to know how your other professor graded you in their class... besides, maybe that professor gives A+'s to all the students!  I really don't care about grades when I'm evaluating a postdoc candidate, it's more about their skills, track record, communication abilities, etc.   The other thing I question is... how would another professor know who has "f***ed" who?  That's definitely not the kind of thing that is talked about around here, if it's happening.  Overall, I think you're over-thinking the situation and have misinformation fueling it.  Just ask your major professor if they agree with the people you'd like to list as references and then just go from there.

The thing I find concerning, however, is your choice of words in your post and situations you've described, which is perhaps the reason some others have suggested you are a troll.  What you described is a load of drama, more like something an undergrad might write or do, but not something from a doctoral student / aspiring professional.  Perhaps I'm off base here because your field is different from mine, but I would strongly encourage you to "tune in" to what the professional behavioral norms are in your scientific / professional discipline.  Since you're going on for a postdoc position, I assume you aspire to become a faculty member or have a professional career in that field.  It will be important that you open your eyes to the social-professional norms for your career field and avoid any behaviors that could be used against you in your professional life, later on.  I'm not saying this to try to be hurtful, I am saying this to be honest.  I have worked with several Ph.D.'s who are great scientists but whose lack of ability to "tune in" to the social-professional norms has cost them job opportunities.

[no1capybara]

I teach at a cc, so I can't claim to be a uni professor.  But I am an old, single, male, hetero, white guy.  If any of you think this guy has been working ziplock for three years to get in her pants, you are out of your minds. Three years??  If any of you find pants so worth getting into that I'd work it for three years, please send the unicorn to me.

Hahahaha, this was my thought too.  Three years?! 

[Kron3007]

I teach at a cc, so I can't claim to be a uni professor.  But I am an old, single, male, hetero, white guy.  If any of you think this guy has been working ziplock for three years to get in her pants, you are out of your minds. Three years??  If any of you find pants so worth getting into that I'd work it for three years, please send the unicorn to me.

Hahahaha, this was my thought too.  Three years?!

I planted an apple tree in my yard and tend to it with the hope of one day eating some apples from this tree, perhaps next year or maybe three years from now.   I have not stopped eating other apples while I wait for this to happen.  Perhaps this tree will never bloom.  I will not be too upset if that is the case, but that is the reason I planted it and it is the reason I tend to it now.

[mahagonny]

I teach at a cc, so I can't claim to be a uni professor.  But I am an old, single, male, hetero, white guy.  If any of you think this guy has been working ziplock for three years to get in her pants, you are out of your minds. Three years??  If any of you find pants so worth getting into that I'd work it for three years, please send the unicorn to me.

Hahahaha, this was my thought too.  Three years?!

I planted an apple tree in my yard and tend to it with the hope of one day eating some apples from this tree, perhaps next year or maybe three years from now.   I have not stopped eating other apples while I wait for this to happen.  Perhaps this tree will never bloom.  I will not be too upset if that is the case, but that is the reason I planted it and it is the reason I tend to it now.

But when the tree bears fruit, it's your fruit and there is no compunction with taking it. Whereas if this professor is thinking about sex with ziplock, he's also made up his mind not to act on it. Which we call being trustworthy.
She can decide to act on it, however. But the relationship is still enjoyable for him if she never does.
That's if it's not a troll thread.

The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.

Yeah, I find it hard to believe that's not the case as well (although I don't know why white needs to be in the dedcription...). 

Things get dull otherwise. And that's what the PhD is for, so you can develop a finely tuned habit of critical thinking and discernment and then accuse people of things because they are white.

[writingprof]

The above said, any old straight white guy who is spending that much non-work time with a straight woman in her 30s wants to get into her pants. He might be too scrupulous or too psychologically damaged to try it, but he's thinking about it.

Yeah, I find it hard to believe that's not the case as well (although I don't know why white needs to be in the dedcription...). 

Things get dull otherwise. And that's what the PhD is for, so you can develop a finely tuned habit of critical thinking and discernment and then accuse people of things because they are white.

No, no, no.  Whiteness is itself the accusation, and it's certainly the crime.  If the OP's mentor hasn't taught her that, he's not worth sleeping with. 

[mahagonny]

Or we could misquote Casablanca's Rick Blaine and say 'he's just like any other man who thinks prurient things and never acts on them, only without the right to think.'