Seeking advice and tricks...
I am a new-ish assistant professor (in the humanities) and a few of my doc students have started their dissertation milestones (qualifying exam/paper, dissertation proposal). What I am seeing is that they aren't progressing on getting them done. I am worried that they are going to stall out (while also expecting/hoping me to fund them). They are great people and they do my research work for/with me. They just don't seem to move on their own work.
Things I have tried: 1) setting up a schedule with them of weekly writing goals and times (they make it but then don't stick to it), 2) offering detailed feedback on sections of writing - I don't require a full draft (they start doing this but then stop sending me stuff), 3) weekly short check-in meetings (which become them telling me inperson/online that they aren't progressing), 4) weekly co-writing times where we sit and write together (which they start to miss).
I really am trying to be supportive! I try to be encouraging! I didn't require any of this structure from my advisor, so even these things seem extra-ordinary, but I really want my people to succeed! Help!
That all sounds great. But maybe the frequency is too high, and they're burning out early? It can take a while to move out of the coursework habit of writing papers until all hours of the night/morning, and into the professional habit of doing a little every day, usually earlier in the day.
Beyond educating them about good research and writing habits, and giving them opportunities to put that newfound knowledge into practice, there's not much you can do.
Oh, I feel this (though since I'm in a lab science, the writing part is generally a couple of big pushes near the end. What I want to do is lock them in a room that provides food in return for words typed, but in the absence of that, I have not found much of anything that works for more than a short time. Setting up an accountability group with other peers (not me) has helped some of them.
From my experience, a person is either highly motivated to finish the diss or not highly motivated. A lot of people were great students at the undergrad and grad levels because they were good with short-term goals, working under deadline, and the types of assignments they had done throughout their education. The dissertation is its own kind of animal. It takes a great deal of discipline and, even more than that, deep-set internal motivation.
I had the world's greatest chair, and part of his power was quick and thorough no nonsense comments, but hu never tried to lock me in a room----it was up to me to write and research.
Let them come to you. Good luck.
Quote from: bluefooted on July 22, 2021, 12:25:29 PM
Seeking advice and tricks...
I am a new-ish assistant professor (in the humanities) and a few of my doc students have started their dissertation milestones (qualifying exam/paper, dissertation proposal). What I am seeing is that they aren't progressing on getting them done. I am worried that they are going to stall out (while also expecting/hoping me to fund them). They are great people and they do my research work for/with me. They just don't seem to move on their own work.
Things I have tried: 1) setting up a schedule with them of weekly writing goals and times (they make it but then don't stick to it), 2) offering detailed feedback on sections of writing - I don't require a full draft (they start doing this but then stop sending me stuff), 3) weekly short check-in meetings (which become them telling me inperson/online that they aren't progressing), 4) weekly co-writing times where we sit and write together (which they start to miss).
I really am trying to be supportive! I try to be encouraging! I didn't require any of this structure from my advisor, so even these things seem extra-ordinary, but I really want my people to succeed! Help!
Something that got me a bit baffled: what do these two statements mean?
"They are great people and they do my research work for/with me. They just don't seem to move on their own work."
How can "your" research work be different than the work of one of your PhD students? I thought PhD students are supposed to do supervised research, so at this point you establish a research group and research becomes a common goal between advisors and students. Am I missing something here? Are things different in humanities compared to other fields?
Yeah, I think it differs for each field. For my field, RAs work (and are paid to work) on my research projects but they are responsible for their own dissertation. They can "piggyback" on my research projects (same group of participants, parallel/tangential research questions) but their work is their own. They collect, analyze, and write-up their own data (with lots of advice from me at each stage). This is different than them working on my projects and papers and having that "count" as theirs. Also, in my field for tenure, papers with my students is important, but I still need to be publishing my own work as first author.
Quote from: bluefooted on July 22, 2021, 03:21:00 PM
Yeah, I think it differs for each field. For my field, RAs work (and are paid to work) on my research projects but they are responsible for their own dissertation. They can "piggyback" on my research projects (same group of participants, parallel/tangential research questions) but their work is their own. They collect, analyze, and write-up their own data (with lots of advice from me at each stage). This is different than them working on my projects and papers and having that "count" as theirs. Also, in my field for tenure, papers with my students is important, but I still need to be publishing my own work as first author.
Makes sense then. Sorry, I was not aware of that :-)
Quote from: research_prof on July 22, 2021, 02:28:10 PM
Quote from: bluefooted on July 22, 2021, 12:25:29 PM
Seeking advice and tricks...
I am a new-ish assistant professor (in the humanities) and a few of my doc students have started their dissertation milestones (qualifying exam/paper, dissertation proposal). What I am seeing is that they aren't progressing on getting them done. I am worried that they are going to stall out (while also expecting/hoping me to fund them). They are great people and they do my research work for/with me. They just don't seem to move on their own work.
Things I have tried: 1) setting up a schedule with them of weekly writing goals and times (they make it but then don't stick to it), 2) offering detailed feedback on sections of writing - I don't require a full draft (they start doing this but then stop sending me stuff), 3) weekly short check-in meetings (which become them telling me inperson/online that they aren't progressing), 4) weekly co-writing times where we sit and write together (which they start to miss).
I really am trying to be supportive! I try to be encouraging! I didn't require any of this structure from my advisor, so even these things seem extra-ordinary, but I really want my people to succeed! Help!
Something that got me a bit baffled: what do these two statements mean?
"They are great people and they do my research work for/with me. They just don't seem to move on their own work."
How can "your" research work be different than the work of one of your PhD students? I thought PhD students are supposed to do supervised research, so at this point you establish a research group and research becomes a common goal between advisors and students. Am I missing something here? Are things different in humanities compared to other fields?
Yes, it's different. In my humanities field, stipends come from the department, not the supervisor. Stipends are lower than the sciences--at or slightly below the poverty level is normal, though they're higher at Harvard. Supervisors mostly don't have grants, because grants mostly don't exist for us. And a PhD student's research project is entirely their own. Your supervisor is an expert in your subfield, but your projects are entirely self-directed.
Funding is 4-5 years, right? After coursework and comprehensive exams, there isn't much time to defend a prospectus and write a dissertation. Eventually, those who fall behind just run out of funding.
I don't know what they expect their advisor to do regarding funding.
If you're students aren't progressing at the same rate as the norm for the department as a whole, you might have to do some serious introspection as to why your students don't finish in a timely manner. If not, all you can do is try to keep them accountable. I found not having funding after 5 years to be a hell of a motivator to finish and get a job.
Quote from: Mobius on July 22, 2021, 11:13:45 PM
Funding is 4-5 years, right? After coursework and comprehensive exams, there isn't much time to defend a prospectus and write a dissertation. Eventually, those who fall behind just run out of funding.
I don't know what they expect their advisor to do regarding funding.
If you're students aren't progressing at the same rate as the norm for the department as a whole, you might have to do some serious introspection as to why your students don't finish in a timely manner. If not, all you can do is try to keep them accountable. I found not having funding after 5 years to be a hell of a motivator to finish and get a job.
The trouble is that a five-year clock doesn't motivate supervisors to take less than six months to a year to read a single chapter and give you feedback on it.
My advice to grad students is don't stop working on other chapters while the supervisor is reading one.
A supervisor who takes six months to provide feedback on a chapter needs a talking to by a department chair or a dean, but how often does that happen?
It happens.
M.
Hard to know what's going on from the outside, but it might be worth trying to get a sense from colleagues about how reasonable your expectations are.
It is really hard to push full out for six years straight and most people I know hit natural lulls in the process. You should expect, for example, that people who finish their exams might take a few months to reset and get to work on dissertation research. Most grad students are people in their 20s and so there can also be life events-good and bad-that get in the way. I know quite a few people with tenure track jobs who got married, got divorced (or both!), had a baby, moved out of state, etc.
Of course, you don't want those lulls to last too long and it is important that students don't feel like nobody cares about their progress or lack thereof. However, you do want to sometimes give students a little room. Same with the weekly meetings. A lot depends on your field, but that would have been too much for me. Most weeks I wouldn't have had anything to report except "still writing that chapter" or "plugging away down in the microfilm room."
Again, a lot depends on your field, but sometimes pressures coming from sources other than you can be helpful. Do you ever do works in progress seminars with grad students? I know that one of the thing that helped me get stuff done was putting my name on the schedule for those seminars when I was working on a chapter. It would have felt like a bigger deal to have to write everyone and tell them I wouldn't have the chapter in time, than it would have to just tell that to my advisor.
According to NSF surveys, median time to get a doctorate in the humanities is 6.8 years. We know funding doesn't usually cover that. I'd look at peer programs and see what their median times to completion are.
Quote from: Mobius on July 23, 2021, 04:09:22 PM
According to NSF surveys, median time to get a doctorate in the humanities is 6.8 years. We know funding doesn't usually cover that. I'd look at peer programs and see what their median times to completion are.
Many humanities doctorates are finished while candidates work as adjuncts. Often funding is extended.
Have you spoken to your colleagues to see if this their experience, and if so, how they handle it? That is, this might just be normal for grad students at your school. (It might also be useful to find out what the completion rate in your department.)
In my personal experience as a grad student in history, the life of a grad student goes in fits and starts. I mean, I was always "working" on the dissertation, in the sense that I was reading secondary literature and looking at primary sources. I tend to write as I go along, so that my drafts are always in the state of being written. However, others I know wait longer to start writing, and then write in more concentrated times.
It might be worth it to talk to your students about what methods they are employing.
Another thing that helps is if there some kind of external pressure--a seminar as has been mentioned upthread, but also informal writing groups of students. You might also encourage students to present at conferences, which might force them to write things up in time.
It wasn't where I went across humanities and social sciences.
It really sounds like you're doing everything you can! Have you tried asking directly what their barriers are to making progress?
With my grad students, I've used a book called The Writing Workshop by Barbara Sarnecka (which she has made freely available: https://osf.io/n8pc3/). It's aimed at the sciences, but might be helpful for yours too as a lot of it is about productivity. The chapter that we refer to most often is on overcoming writing resistance. She uses some really good metaphors and humor (there is a friendly resistance monster that thinks it needs to protect you from writing), and has gotten them to talk openly and without shame about writing resistance and brainstorm how to overcome it.
At some point, they may need some tough talk about timelines and how their funding *will* end whether they are done or not. They are grown ups, and ultimately they need to take responsibility for their own progress.
Quote from: Puget on July 24, 2021, 01:56:28 PM
With my grad students, I've used a book called The Writing Workshop by Barbara Sarnecka (which she has made freely available: https://osf.io/n8pc3/).
This is a great resource! Thanks for this share! I have used NCFDD materials and it's really helped me.
Quote from: Puget on July 24, 2021, 01:56:28 PM
It really sounds like you're doing everything you can! Have you tried asking directly what their barriers are to making progress?
[...]
At some point, they may need some tough talk about timelines and how their funding *will* end whether they are done or not. They are grown ups, and ultimately they need to take responsibility for their own progress.
Both of these are good points, but they are separate points. I am in favor of making things in graduate school as transparent as possible, because oftentimes there are assumptions that people take for granted (like, don't read all of all the books you are assigned) but that some people do not know. Thus, it is possible that they have a different perspective on the timeline than you do. They might not think they are behind, because they have five/six years to work on a dissertation and, after all, they've written 30-page papers in a month, so surely they can write a 300-page dissertation in the last year or two. Without freaking them out, you should explain that they need to be making constant progress on the dissertation, not just writing it up at the end. This is to say, they might not even be aware that their situation is problematic.
On the other hand, they might already know this, but might be overwhelmed by the prospect of writing a 300-page dissertation, not where to start, feel ignorant of the literature, etc., etc. In which case you can discuss particular strategies.
Since you are dealing with several students, my guess is it is mix of both, with the students telling each other that since nobody else has done much, they cannot really be doing poorly.
I schedule a monthly check-in with each student. I also schedule several hours a week for "dissertation conferences", which I explain to my students is time I've reserved for reading drafts and extra meetings with dissertation students, as needed. Some students often schedule conferences, while others might send me a draft between our monthly check-ins.
At the beginning of the process, we set up a multi-year plan, working backwards from when funding ends, because seeing the process broken down into chunks helps some students. Setting up the plan also gives me a chance to point out some realities, like expecting slow responses during exams, and needing to book defense a month in advance. During our monthly check-in, I always ask students if they've checked off, added, or changed target dates on anything on their plan, because I want them to realize plans can be adjusted.
Quote from: bluefooted on July 22, 2021, 12:25:29 PM
I am a new-ish assistant professor (in the humanities) and a few of my doc students have started their dissertation milestones (qualifying exam/paper, dissertation proposal). What I am seeing is that they aren't progressing on getting them done. I am worried that they are going to stall out (while also expecting/hoping me to fund them). They are great people and they do my research work for/with me. They just don't seem to move on their own work.
Is it a norm in your field to have multiple PhD students just few years in?
Also, could you get them out with a master's degree? if there are signs already of them unable to work independently, it seems reasonable to do so. The outrageous thing about PhD students attrition is that most of it happens at a very late stage after people already sank too much time and money (directly and through opportunity cost) into pursuing their degree.
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on July 25, 2021, 07:49:20 AM
Quote from: bluefooted on July 22, 2021, 12:25:29 PM
I am a new-ish assistant professor (in the humanities) and a few of my doc students have started their dissertation milestones (qualifying exam/paper, dissertation proposal). What I am seeing is that they aren't progressing on getting them done. I am worried that they are going to stall out (while also expecting/hoping me to fund them). They are great people and they do my research work for/with me. They just don't seem to move on their own work.
Is it a norm in your field to have multiple PhD students just few years in?
Also, could you get them out with a master's degree? if there are signs already of them unable to work independently, it seems reasonable to do so. The outrageous thing about PhD students attrition is that most of it happens at a very late stage after people already sank too much time and money (directly and through opportunity cost) into pursuing their degree.
Tell me about it!
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on July 25, 2021, 07:49:20 AM
Quote from: bluefooted on July 22, 2021, 12:25:29 PM
I am a new-ish assistant professor (in the humanities) and a few of my doc students have started their dissertation milestones (qualifying exam/paper, dissertation proposal). What I am seeing is that they aren't progressing on getting them done. I am worried that they are going to stall out (while also expecting/hoping me to fund them). They are great people and they do my research work for/with me. They just don't seem to move on their own work.
Is it a norm in your field to have multiple PhD students just few years in?
Also, could you get them out with a master's degree? if there are signs already of them unable to work independently, it seems reasonable to do so. The outrageous thing about PhD students attrition is that most of it happens at a very late stage after people already sank too much time and money (directly and through opportunity cost) into pursuing their degree.
I agree that it isn't kind to let people hang around who aren't going to be able to finish. On the other hand, it is important not to confuse those students with students who occasionally get stuck or have a different approach than you did. Part of the process is actually learning how to get work done, people work really differently and there isn't one way to write a dissertation.
It is hard to really figure out what is going on without knowing more about individual students and where they are. A student who is has been ABD for two years but has done no research and produced nothing tangible like a chapter or an article is really different than a student who finished their comps last spring and hasn't formulated a research plan yet.
Quote from: Caracal on July 26, 2021, 08:07:31 AM
It is hard to really figure out what is going on without knowing more about individual students and where they are. A student who is has been ABD for two years but has done no research and produced nothing tangible like a chapter or an article is really different than a student who finished their comps last spring and hasn't formulated a research plan yet.
Waiting two years to decide whether the project is feasible seems to be quite a waste in terms of both stipend money and student's time (particularly, if considering money/time already spent before the exam).
There seems to be another field-specific issue here: in my case thesis proposal was required before the qualifying exam.
So, it would be impossible to pass the exam without formulating a research plan.
Quote from: Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert on July 26, 2021, 09:57:16 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 26, 2021, 08:07:31 AM
It is hard to really figure out what is going on without knowing more about individual students and where they are. A student who is has been ABD for two years but has done no research and produced nothing tangible like a chapter or an article is really different than a student who finished their comps last spring and hasn't formulated a research plan yet.
Waiting two years to decide whether the project is feasible seems to be quite a waste in terms of both stipend money and student's time (particularly, if considering money/time already spent before the exam).
There seems to be another field-specific issue here: in my case thesis proposal was required before the qualifying exam.
So, it would be impossible to pass the exam without formulating a research plan.
That kind of thing varies not just by field but by institution. My department had no official thesis proposal. I did one anyway and presented it at a seminar, but it didn't need to be approved in any official way.
But, yes, I agree. There's a lot of difference between a student who is temporarily drifting and one who has just gotten completely stalled out. In the first case, an advisor should probably just nudge gently and make sure the student starts regaining focus. In the latter, clear benchmarks required to stay in the program are probably called for.
I have run into the following types of students:
Those who have no intention of finishing the PhD but spout just enough BS to remain in the program so long as they are funded;
Those who are capable of finishing and plan to finish but are poor with regards to planning out their writing;
Those who want to finish but really are not capable of doing so;
Those who already have some type of full-time job not dependent on finishing their thesis, so they want to finish their thesis but may not be the most motivated;
Those who plan on finishing but are excellent procrastinators (often because they have other things going on). I have known more than one grad student who waited to the last minute to finish their dissertation, but did so under immense pressure. I would not recommend this, but it does happen;
Those who think they belong to the previous category, but are unable to actually pull it off.
Each type of student is different and requires a different approach.
So, based on your list, you've never had a single student who actually finished?
M.
Well, if you read the list closely, the penultimate type of students finished. But as Tolstoy said, all good graduate students are the same, but troublesome grad students are each troubling in his own way. So why put students who finish on the list?
And being serious, I would say that the majority of PhD students I have known (not supervised) have not finished their dissertations.
Quote from: jerseyjay on July 26, 2021, 09:21:12 PM
Well, if you read the list closely, the penultimate type of students finished. But as Tolstoy said, all good graduate students are the same, but troublesome grad students are each troubling in his own way. So why put students who finish on the list?
And being serious, I would say that the majority of PhD students I have known (not supervised) have not finished their dissertations.
I'm sure a lot depends on where you are. In my program, the vast majority of students finished eventually. In my cohort, out of 11 of us, only two didn't finish.
I am sure it depends on where you are and what field you are in.
This thread is about problematic grad students. But I think there is another type of student, who make a large percentage of grad students (and most of those I have met in my years as a student and professor). These are people who enroll in a PhD program and somewhere along the line (usually in the first two years) decide that they don't want to continue. Sometimes it is because the "opportunity cost" of doing a PhD is greater than actually getting on with their life. Sometimes it is because they don't see any jobs, or realize that having a PhD will only marginally improve their job chances. Sometimes it is because they find academia not to their liking. Often they leave with a "terminal masters" or something like that.
I know more than 20 people who left graduate studies in this way. Few, if any, of them feel bad about their decision. Many were studying at very prestigious places (including the Ivy League). And those who stopped are not less intelligent than those whose continued. In fact, I know many more people who started a doctoral program than have finished. And certainly way more people who started than decided to stop than those who got a tenure-track job.
I don't think this is a problem. The problem is when a huge amount of resources (theirs and the school's) has been sunk in their graduate study before they realize they won't finish. Or if they want to finish, and cannot.
In terms of the original topic, I think part of an advisor's job is to be able to help students make sure they really want to finish, and to smooth out their leaving if they decide they don't want to continue. But I cannot imagine all of your students fall in this category.
Quote from: jerseyjay on July 27, 2021, 08:29:02 AM
I am sure it depends on where you are and what field you are in.
This thread is about problematic grad students. But I think there is another type of student, who make a large percentage of grad students (and most of those I have met in my years as a student and professor). These are people who enroll in a PhD program and somewhere along the line (usually in the first two years) decide that they don't want to continue. Sometimes it is because the "opportunity cost" of doing a PhD is greater than actually getting on with their life. Sometimes it is because they don't see any jobs, or realize that having a PhD will only marginally improve their job chances. Sometimes it is because they find academia not to their liking. Often they leave with a "terminal masters" or something like that.
I know more than 20 people who left graduate studies in this way. Few, if any, of them feel bad about their decision. Many were studying at very prestigious places (including the Ivy League). And those who stopped are not less intelligent than those whose continued. In fact, I know many more people who started a doctoral program than have finished. And certainly way more people who started than decided to stop than those who got a tenure-track job.
I don't think this is a problem. The problem is when a huge amount of resources (theirs and the school's) has been sunk in their graduate study before they realize they won't finish. Or if they want to finish, and cannot.
In terms of the original topic, I think part of an advisor's job is to be able to help students make sure they really want to finish, and to smooth out their leaving if they decide they don't want to continue. But I cannot imagine all of your students fall in this category.
Yeah, I knew some of those people too and most of them seemed pretty happy with their decision. It's incredibly hard to finish a dissertation when you really do want to do it, it is almost impossible when you don't. One of the cultural problems with academia and grad school is that it tends to stigmatize those decisions. There's usually nothing malicious about it. Advisors want their students to complete their studies and write a dissertation. But, that needs to be balanced with an understanding that sometimes moving on can be a good decision.
The quit lit boom seems to have died down, but one of the things I noticed about it was how fully a lot of the quit lit writers had really internalized the sense of shame and stigmatization around leaving grad school. There was all this rhetoric about wasted years of life and the lifelong scars of going to grad school. That doesn't leave much room for what Jersey is talking about-people who go to grad school for a few years and then decide that it isn't a path they want to pursue anymore and do something else.
But, yes, to return to the original topic, I agree that it seems unlikely all of your students can't hack it-which is why I think its important to make sure your expectations are reasonable and in line with those of other faculty.