How can people still take the Bible or other the religious texts literally?

[Treehugger]

What exactly is the nature of a 'belief' that one picks and chooses when to take, as though it were an aspirin?

Belief is what I believe it the moment when I believe it. When I was a Christian, I didn't actually believe. At least I didn't actually believe 99.999% of the time. I just tried really hard to believe. Trying hard to believe, praying to believe is not actually believing. 

What's best is what actually works. Not what you have been told should work. But what actually works for you. At least, that is what I think ...

If inconsistencies in one's beliefs actually make one a better person (more functional; more helpful for others, less of a basket case) then what the heck? Go ahead and be inconsistent.

[mahagonny]

If someone today really believed the fantastic things reported in the Bible (The Resurrection, The parting of the Red Sea, etc) actually happened then logically he should believe they are happening now somewhere, and also be planning for it. We would probably call him schizophrenic. He wouldn't blend in with a protestant congregation. Likewise if someone believes he is Jesus Christ (I met one once) he's probably schizophrenic. Maybe Jesus Christ was schizophrenic. If he had been just a con man, he picked odd things to do with his opportunity. And I mean no offense to believers here. I think religions have done a ton of good for society. I don't ridicule religion, except maybe Scientology (whether it should be called one).

[financeguy]

If you'd never heard of the "big 3" you wouldn't find their beliefs any less crazy than those of Scientology.

[Treehugger]

If someone today really believed the fantastic things reported in the Bible (The Resurrection, The parting of the Red Sea, etc) actually happened then logically he should believe they are happening now somewhere, and also be planning for it. We would probably call him schizophrenic. He wouldn't blend in with a protestant congregation. Likewise if someone believes he is Jesus Christ (I met one once) he's probably schizophrenic. Maybe Jesus Christ was schizophrenic. If he had been just a con man, he picked odd things to do with his opportunity. And I mean no offense to believers here. I think religions have done a ton of good for society. I don't ridicule religion, except maybe Scientology (whether it should be called one).

To be fair, believing you are JC is not the same as believing in JC. I mean, as far as the craziness factor goes.

[marshwiggle]

Maybe Jesus Christ was schizophrenic. If he had been just a con man, he picked odd things to do with his opportunity. And I mean no offense to believers here. I think religions have done a ton of good for society. I don't ridicule religion, except maybe Scientology (whether it should be called one).

Actually C.S. Lewis basically said that several decades ago; Jesus was either a lunatic, or a liar, or who he said he was. The "great teacher" idea doesn't really work in the context of the things he said, because they rely so completely on the claims of his own divinity.

[mahagonny]

If you'd never heard of the "big 3" you wouldn't find their beliefs any less crazy than those of Scientology.

I see. No doubt. Scientology gets my ridicule and scorn though because they are so controlling, mercenary, vengeful (at the top levels). Whereas, who is really harmed if you believe in the big three, or the stuff the Joseph Smith taught?

[little bongo]

My views on faith are also kind of contradictory, but I think three illustrations put it in perspective:

From Vivekenanda: "See Christ, then you are a Christian. All else is talk." The Swami gets right to the point for me. I think it's also a message to a) bossy believers who mock non-believers or those who don't believe the right way, as well as b) bossy non-believers who mock believers. Did you see Christ? Cool. We're good. You didn't? Cool. We're good.

Jesus' sermon on the mount: "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."  Again, Jesus knew the score--if you believe and you're mocking non-believers or showing off for them, you're being a poopy-head. If you're a non-believer and you're mocking believers, you're also being a poopy-head. Jesus clearly tells us: don't be a poopy-head.

And finally, "Oh, God!", a movie from 1977 directed by Carl Reiner, and featuring then-unlikely movie star George Burns and amiable singer/total non-actor John Denver. How deep this movie really was snuck up on me over the last 43 years. I remember I was perplexed when I first saw it--toward the end religious experts are asking God questions through the John Denver character, and they've written their questions in Aramaic. God wryly notes that the experts did that so that Denver couldn't possibly answer. But God does answer (also writing in Aramaic as he speaks). And I thought, why didn't they believe John Denver then, when he was able to give the answers? (Still later, George Burns/God reveals himself, and that doesn't convince everybody either.)  It wasn't till much, much later that I realized the point--you could make a list of what you required a being to do to "prove" they were God, then the being could do those things, and the response would be like, "Okay, something was wrong with my list, or something is wrong with my perception." It taught me a great deal about the nature of belief and non-belief, and if I'm in any way tolerant or enlightened, it is because of the 19th century Swami, the man identified as Jesus in the New Testament, and a old vaudeville comic gaining a second career as a movie star. So it goes.

[marshwiggle]

What exactly is the nature of a 'belief' that one picks and chooses when to take, as though it were an aspirin?

Belief is what I believe it the moment when I believe it. When I was a Christian, I didn't actually believe. At least I didn't actually believe 99.999% of the time. I just tried really hard to believe. Trying hard to believe, praying to believe is not actually believing. 

Absolutely. I think that's what muddies the waters so much about "faith" and "belief" in religious terms. The way I would describe "faith" is as action without certainty about the outcome. It is doing what you think is the right thing even if you're not sure the universe is going to reward you for it.

What's best is what actually works. Not what you have been told should work. But what actually works for you. At least, that is what I think ...

If inconsistencies in one's beliefs actually make one a better person (more functional; more helpful for others, less of a basket case) then what the heck? Go ahead and be inconsistent.

The idea of spiritual growth as a lifelong process is pretty universal; absolute consistency is going to be impossible for any mortal. And often recognizing the inconsistencies lead to more insights.

[Parasaurolophus]

What exactly is the nature of a 'belief' that one picks and chooses when to take, as though it were an aspirin?

The nature of belief is, as I said earlier, really quite complicated. One common distinction that's drawn is between beliefs and the kind of stuff that's under the subject's voluntary control (usually called 'acceptance'). But then, on the belief side of things, it's also common to distinguish between the things we believe implicitly (aliefs) and explicitly (beliefs), or between representational vs. dispositional belief.

Absolutely. I think that's what muddies the waters so much about "faith" and "belief" in religious terms. The way I would describe "faith" is as action without certainty about the outcome. It is doing what you think is the right thing even if you're not sure the universe is going to reward you for it.

The faith-as-belief account of faith is fairly popular (although so is faith-as-knowledge). Generally speaking, on that account what distinguishes faith and belief is just their content (at least when their degrees of credence are comparable; faith is supposed to be high-credence belief). But, as you can see from those links, other accounts are available.

[Wahoo Redux]

What exactly is the nature of a 'belief' that one picks and chooses when to take, as though it were an aspirin?

I'd say that is a pretty typical human belief structure, even for the religious professionals. 

[downer]

Christianity places much more emphasis on belief than many other religions. Ritual, group membership, and a moral code are some elements that hold more weight in others. Even in Christianity, belief is not as central an element as some people make out, and certainly not precise belief rooted in theological reasoning. Just talking to students about their religion makes that clear, even those who went to Catholic high schools. If you start asking them what the differences are between their brand of Christianity and other brands, you rarely get clear answers that make sense.  Or try asking them about the nature of the Trinity.

I've often wondered what kind of belief your average ancient Greek had in Zeus, Poseidon, Athena and the rest. They probably made offerings to their gods, and they had their stories about them being up on Mt Olympus. But did they really believe that if you went up that mountain you would see the gods hanging out? I find it hard to get my head around that.

[ciao_yall]

Picking up the thread on suffering...

As a non-observant half-Jew, I hit the Jewish ritual scene when there is enough alignment.

So one year I fasted on Yom Kippur. What a humbling experience.

Being aware that I was choosing not to eat when others could not eat.

When I finally had enough of it, being aware that I could choose what to eat to break my fast (oatmeal!) instead of whatever I was given.

Today, because of that, I think of hunger, and food choices, with a completely new insight.

If we need to suffer to empathize with those who suffer so we can take action; and if we can feel grateful instead of taking our blessings for granted, then ritual and suffering have their place.

[kaysixteen]

Hmmm... good points about words like 'belief' and 'faith' being almost meaningless if one does not know clearly how the user thereof is using it, what he means by it, etc.

But one does not have to exactly know what an author means by 'belief' to know that the Bible does not really equate belief in Christ, and/or faith in Him, as a vehicle to get God to give you stuff.  IOW, you aren't to try to turn on 'belief' when you are in a dangerous situation, when you are trying to get something, etc.  Of course, and sadly, this runs quite contrary to the 'gospel' regularly presented on TV by the name-it-and-claim it prosperity teachers who nowadays are nigh-onto ubiquitous there.

[Treehugger]

Hmmm... good points about words like 'belief' and 'faith' being almost meaningless if one does not know clearly how the user thereof is using it, what he means by it, etc.

But one does not have to exactly know what an author means by 'belief' to know that the Bible does not really equate belief in Christ, and/or faith in Him, as a vehicle to get God to give you stuff.  IOW, you aren't to try to turn on 'belief' when you are in a dangerous situation, when you are trying to get something, etc.  Of course, and sadly, this runs quite contrary to the 'gospel' regularly presented on TV by the name-it-and-claim it prosperity teachers who nowadays are nigh-onto ubiquitous there.

I don't "turn it on" to get something. It just happens. I just start believing in extreme and highly stressful situations. I feel like an entirely different person. I'm not "me." I'm suddenly this incredibly stressed out person who just so happens to be a believer.

Obviously, I am physically the same person, but emotionally and psychological I am in an entirely different space. And in this space I believe.

Just so that we are clear, this kind of situation happens to me about once every 10 years. It's very unusual, but it happens.

There are many, many times in the course of un-heightened, everyday life that I want something I don't have. I certainly do not turn on belief and pray to get it. Instead, I just do my best to work towards my goals using entirely non-supernatural means or maybe just accept that I'll never get what I want. One example: Last year, I went through a scary cancer diagnosis (stage IIIb lung cancer) and the concomitant treatment and I can honestly say not once did I feel the need for prayer.

[Wahoo Redux]

Hmmm... good points about words like 'belief' and 'faith' being almost meaningless if one does not know clearly how the user thereof is using it, what he means by it, etc.

But one does not have to exactly know what an author means by 'belief' to know that the Bible does not really equate belief in Christ, and/or faith in Him, as a vehicle to get God to give you stuff.  IOW, you aren't to try to turn on 'belief' when you are in a dangerous situation, when you are trying to get something, etc.  Of course, and sadly, this runs quite contrary to the 'gospel' regularly presented on TV by the name-it-and-claim it prosperity teachers who nowadays are nigh-onto ubiquitous there.

I don't "turn it on" to get something. It just happens. I just start believing in extreme and highly stressful situations. I feel like an entirely different person. I'm not "me." I'm suddenly this incredibly stressed out person who just so happens to be a believer.

Obviously, I am physically the same person, but emotionally and psychological I am in an entirely different space. And in this space I believe.

Just so that we are clear, this kind of situation happens to me about once every 10 years. It's very unusual, but it happens.

There are many, many times in the course of un-heightened, everyday life that I want something I don't have. I certainly do not turn on belief and pray to get it. Instead, I just do my best to work towards my goals using entirely non-supernatural means or maybe just accept that I'll never get what I want. One example: Last year, I went through a scary cancer diagnosis (stage IIIb lung cancer) and the concomitant treatment and I can honestly say not once did I feel the need for prayer.

My father had been a paratrooper in the special forces.  He told me that no one swore on the airplane before the jumps.  These soldiers, who were a pretty rough bunch (my dad was one tough dude), would not use the Lord's name in vain.  My dad swore a lot in terms that were acceptable to the Eisenhower Era ethos, frequently using "God**** it!" as an expletive but not before jumping from a C-130 into the night sky.