Vaccination nation

[Puget]

Boosters!
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/us/politics/booster-shots.html?referringSource=articleShare

I heard that some people (Angela Merkel?) got one each of Moderna and Pfizer which is mean to be more effective. Would it make sense to get a different booster from the vaccine you originally got? I got Moderna, so should I get a Pfizer booster?

I don't think there's any evidence for that. Important to realize that the benefit for most people is likely to be fairly marginal and the most important protection is probably pretty long lasting.

On the other hand I heard that Moderna provides better protection against Delta, while Pfizer is better against the earlier variants. So having both may provide wider protection.

There has also been some research suggesting that mixing one dose of an adenovirus vaccine with one dose of an mRNA vaccine gives better protection than either alone.

[Caracal]

Boosters!
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/us/politics/booster-shots.html?referringSource=articleShare

I heard that some people (Angela Merkel?) got one each of Moderna and Pfizer which is mean to be more effective. Would it make sense to get a different booster from the vaccine you originally got? I got Moderna, so should I get a Pfizer booster?

I don't think there's any evidence for that. Important to realize that the benefit for most people is likely to be fairly marginal and the most important protection is probably pretty long lasting.

On the other hand I heard that Moderna provides better protection against Delta, while Pfizer is better against the earlier variants. So having both may provide wider protection.

I think there was one study that supposedly showed that, but honestly, I would take that as evidence that the study was probably screwed up. Pfizer and Moderna are incredibly similar, and they have performed similarly in almost every way.

I'm not a STEM person, but my sense is that this illustrates a real divide between the way experts in these fields look at research and the way it gets communicated and viewed by non experts. If one study comes out and it seems to not fit with previous evidence and assumptions, it doesn't mean that you should just toss out all of those priors. I'm sure there's a complicated balancing act, because you don't want to get locked into believing something when new evidence points to a different conclusion, but if one study shows some weird thing that doesn't really make a lot of sense, and that finding isn't replicated in other studies, it may not even be worth bothering to pursue it.

That study got a lot of press and I've had friends mention it to me, but the expert types I follow on twitter seem to have mostly ignored it. I'm not sure it really even makes sense for people in the field to spend time analyzing wonky results when they seem to be confined to one study. I imagine you just put it in the category of "doesn't make sense, probably means they screwed up in their study design" and only come back to it if you see that result somewhere else.

[downer]

Now that Pfizer vaccine has been officially approved, some vaccine mandates kick in. For example, the whole SUNY system. But it is close to the start of the semester. Many places have started already. Students don't have time to get two shots before the start of the semester. So how is the mandate going to work? Has anyone in charge thought it through?

[Puget]

Now that Pfizer vaccine has been officially approved, some vaccine mandates kick in. For example, the whole SUNY system. But it is close to the start of the semester. Many places have started already. Students don't have time to get two shots before the start of the semester. So how is the mandate going to work? Has anyone in charge thought it through?

It doesn't seem that complicated-- you just set a deadline that requires them to have initiated vaccination within the next few weeks. Many requirements have deadlines in future rather than going into effect immediately.

[downer]

Now that Pfizer vaccine has been officially approved, some vaccine mandates kick in. For example, the whole SUNY system. But it is close to the start of the semester. Many places have started already. Students don't have time to get two shots before the start of the semester. So how is the mandate going to work? Has anyone in charge thought it through?

It doesn't seem that complicated-- you just set a deadline that requires them to have initiated vaccination within the next few weeks. Many requirements have deadlines in future rather than going into effect immediately.

So what would be a good plan? They have to have their first shot by ... Sept 30, and second shot by... Nov 15 ?

Hopefully the requirement of lots of places, that if they don't have the vaccination they have to get weekly COVID test has already prompted a good proportion to get vaccinated.

[saffie]

Students here have already been heavily encouraged to be vaccinated to avoid mandatory testing for in-person or hybrid classes.

With the FDA approval, the mandate to vaccinate kicks in here too -- first Moderna shot within 3 days of FDA approval, first Pfizer within 10 days, or J & J within 30 days to meet deadline to be fully vaccinated and avoid possible withdrawal from classes. 

[Kron3007]

Now that Pfizer vaccine has been officially approved, some vaccine mandates kick in. For example, the whole SUNY system. But it is close to the start of the semester. Many places have started already. Students don't have time to get two shots before the start of the semester. So how is the mandate going to work? Has anyone in charge thought it through?

It doesn't seem that complicated-- you just set a deadline that requires them to have initiated vaccination within the next few weeks. Many requirements have deadlines in future rather than going into effect immediately.

Our university mandated vaccines for all staff l, students, and faculty .  It was announced a couple weeks ago, so obviously there would not be enough time to do the full course in time.  They have simply set a deadline to have your first shot (beginning of the semester here).  Then, to continue having access, we have to have our second shot by another date (mid octoberish).

It is really pretty simple in principle.  Operationalizing and enforcing it could be a challenge, but just making it required will likely get most people to comply anyway. 

[nebo113]

University of Virginia "disenrolled" students who were not vaxxed.

[Puget]

Now that Pfizer vaccine has been officially approved, some vaccine mandates kick in. For example, the whole SUNY system. But it is close to the start of the semester. Many places have started already. Students don't have time to get two shots before the start of the semester. So how is the mandate going to work? Has anyone in charge thought it through?

It doesn't seem that complicated-- you just set a deadline that requires them to have initiated vaccination within the next few weeks. Many requirements have deadlines in future rather than going into effect immediately.

Our university mandated vaccines for all staff l, students, and faculty .  It was announced a couple weeks ago, so obviously there would not be enough time to do the full course in time.  They have simply set a deadline to have your first shot (beginning of the semester here).  Then, to continue having access, we have to have our second shot by another date (mid octoberish).

It is really pretty simple in principle.  Operationalizing and enforcing it could be a challenge, but just making it required will likely get most people to comply anyway.

Enforcement is actually super easy for a university compared to most other settings-- you can turn off their cards (no dinning hall meals, often no building access) and then unenroll them if that fails.

[Kron3007]

Now that Pfizer vaccine has been officially approved, some vaccine mandates kick in. For example, the whole SUNY system. But it is close to the start of the semester. Many places have started already. Students don't have time to get two shots before the start of the semester. So how is the mandate going to work? Has anyone in charge thought it through?

It doesn't seem that complicated-- you just set a deadline that requires them to have initiated vaccination within the next few weeks. Many requirements have deadlines in future rather than going into effect immediately.

Our university mandated vaccines for all staff l, students, and faculty .  It was announced a couple weeks ago, so obviously there would not be enough time to do the full course in time.  They have simply set a deadline to have your first shot (beginning of the semester here).  Then, to continue having access, we have to have our second shot by another date (mid octoberish).

It is really pretty simple in principle.  Operationalizing and enforcing it could be a challenge, but just making it required will likely get most people to comply anyway.

Enforcement is actually super easy for a university compared to most other settings-- you can turn off their cards (no dinning hall meals, often no building access) and then unenroll them if that fails.

Yeah, it is pretty easy I guess and the record keeping apparatus should be setup.  Here (Canada) there are enough loopholes that students could exploit (religious exemptions etc.)  to avoid the requirement, but I suppose that is part of the system (I assume this is the same in the US).  However, I suspect it is easier to just get vaccinated and all but the most ardent anti-vaxxer would just get it done to avoid paperwork.   

[Stockmann]

Now that Pfizer vaccine has been officially approved, some vaccine mandates kick in. For example, the whole SUNY system. But it is close to the start of the semester. Many places have started already. Students don't have time to get two shots before the start of the semester. So how is the mandate going to work? Has anyone in charge thought it through?

It doesn't seem that complicated-- you just set a deadline that requires them to have initiated vaccination within the next few weeks. Many requirements have deadlines in future rather than going into effect immediately.

Our university mandated vaccines for all staff l, students, and faculty .  It was announced a couple weeks ago, so obviously there would not be enough time to do the full course in time.  They have simply set a deadline to have your first shot (beginning of the semester here).  Then, to continue having access, we have to have our second shot by another date (mid octoberish).

It is really pretty simple in principle.  Operationalizing and enforcing it could be a challenge, but just making it required will likely get most people to comply anyway.

Enforcement is actually super easy for a university compared to most other settings-- you can turn off their cards (no dinning hall meals, often no building access) and then unenroll them if that fails.

Yeah, it is pretty easy I guess and the record keeping apparatus should be setup.  Here (Canada) there are enough loopholes that students could exploit (religious exemptions etc.)  to avoid the requirement, but I suppose that is part of the system (I assume this is the same in the US).  However, I suspect it is easier to just get vaccinated and all but the most ardent anti-vaxxer would just get it done to avoid paperwork.   

In addition to the paperwork, you could just require the unvaccinated to get tested at least weekly, maybe twice weekly if local cases are pretty bad, no exceptions, enforced through disenrollment. Only the most dedicated anti-vaxxers would fake an exemption and go through that, and people who genuinely fell in an exemption category. You could also implement a rule that the unvaccinated, even with an exemption, can only take a f2f class if there are no online or hybrid options. I don't think the problem is legal or logistical, I think the problem is administrative inertia, potential political interference and poor institutional leadership.

[Hegemony]

I think the problem is that they don't want to scare students away and lose the revenue. Not that they are profiteering — just that the millions already lost have sent most universities into a (justified) panic, and they are trying to coax students into doing the safest thing rather than hassling them to do it, which could well make the students cranky and inclined to disenroll and go elsewhere. Hence my own university's stance of "We require all students to be vaccinated, unless they have an objection." In other words, "Do it unless you don't want to."

[Stockmann]

It's not so straightforward, though. These measures could re-assure students worried about Covid (and/or their parents), which might make them more likely to enroll in that particular institution, live in dorms, etc. Also, if an outbreak does happen, that's going to lead to having to make some pretty unpalatable choices. Finally, there's the potential for faculty taking measures of their own, including malicious compliance, which won't be enough to force admins to change course but can create disruption and all sorts of problems down the line. If the institution is already seriously under threat financially, it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back and causes significant numbers to leave - why would you risk your health for a job that is just a temp job even if you're tenured?

[Hegemony]

What would malicious compliance be?

[Stockmann]

What would malicious compliance be?

For instance, if admin says you can't enforce masks or vaccinations and they tell you to "work with students" you could do that by quietly dropping any required attendance, with online makeup quizes, tests, etc and if lots of students don't show up for class much, well, that's an unfortunate side-effect.