Topic: Bang Your Head on Your Desk - the thread of teaching despair!

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

The institutional move from seeing a situation like this as a "classroom management" concern the instructor needs to deal with on their own to now seeing such a situation as a college-wide concern has been one of the biggest changes in higher ed in the last 20-25 years--at least in my experience.

It took some school shootings, a few lawsuits, and some fortunate retirements, but it's been a good change. It's also forced me to get over the "nobody like a rat" mentality to one of "let's move people towards the help they need."

Spot on, Fishbrains. I've always had a lot of "behavior issues" students at my campus, but pre-COVID (maybe around 2016 or so) I had a young woman who started the kind of nonsense that EPW has experienced, but mine was in a F2F class on a Friday (i.e., hardly anyone else in the buildings at the time of my class).

I immediately started the paper trail and didn't get much help, until after several escalating issues in class and via email. I showed up one Friday after 3 weeks of the student's nonsense and told my dean that I was refusing to go and teach class unless and until security (who are also actual cops) were present to keep me and my students safe. I had requested the security presence earlier, but the campus VP insisted I was overreacting, even after the student had a violent outburst the previous week and left mid-class, screaming that she would "come back and get every one of you M-F's" before the semester was over.

That same day when I refused to teach, after calling my union, I also called the campus police chief - who had heard nothing about the issue from any admins - and she flipped when she heard what had happened. The chief immediately came to my classroom, got statements from all my students (many of whom were more worried than even I had been), and made sure I had a security escort to and from all of my classes and to my car, and security posted outside that particular class, for the rest of the term.

Gee, I wonder why that iteration of the campus leadership didn't like me? /s 

Still, it was better than letting it go and end up turning into something much worse. As it was, the student never came back, but within a couple of weeks of the final incident in my class, she was all over the local news for having shot two other women, stabbing a man, and beating a cop who'd answered that 911 call before backup arrived on the scene.

I will happily admit to being a s*&t disturber with admin about petty things (in a "malicious compliance" sort of way). But when it comes to serious issues of safety, either my own or that of students in my classrooms, I don't play. Things have gotten a bit better in recent years, not least because a couple of other assaults on our other campuses were mishandled and got us lots of bad press in the intervening years. (Some admin heads also rolled over those, which helped change the climate, too.)

Holy shit, ALH! That is absolutely crazy! I'm glad you the campus cops had your back even when the admins didn't.

[Langue_doc]

...

Thanks all. Apparently this kid has a record...

That's often the case, as I discovered. Since this is an online class, talk to your tech support department/person to see what else you can do. If you have an office of online learning/instruction, they should also be able to address this situation.

If this happens in a classroom, I would talk to campus security, as they would be aware of similar complaints about the student. If there are no complaints as yet, your complaint would help the next instructor who reports this student, as well as the classmates concerned. Students who are enrolled in classes deserve an environment that's condusive to learning, and therefore expect the instructor to take care of disruptive students (as was the case in one of my classes).

Campus safety policies changed after a couple of shootings about a decade ago, and the higher-ups are much happier if they are notified of students who are potential lawsuits waiting to happen.

[kaysixteen]

Random thoughts:

1) Let me be blunt-- professor X does not get to take out his irriation at He Told Me To Go Bleep Myself, by downgrading HTMTGBM's term paper.   Really, he just doesn't.  I had been trying to nudge people here to see this, but maybe I did not nudge hard enough.

2) Using bad cases, such as the kid who did go on the shooting spree, to criminalize mental illness is a no-go, really, it is.  Simply put, 'Go Bleep Yourself' is not in the same universe as 'I'm coming back here and am going to kick your ass'.   It would be better if there were fewer campus cops-- ideally, at least in most cases, no campus cops, since the actual local cops are just a phone call away: most of us Xers and up went to higher ed institutions, esp if they were private ones, which never employed a licensed sworn LEO.  What is needed is trained mental health professionals on campus who can intervene with such kids, only using actual coppers when absolutely necessary.

[apl68]

Random thoughts:

1) Let me be blunt-- professor X does not get to take out his irriation at He Told Me To Go Bleep Myself, by downgrading HTMTGBM's term paper.  Really, he just doesn't.  I had been trying to nudge people here to see this, but maybe I did not nudge hard enough.

2) Using bad cases, such as the kid who did go on the shooting spree, to criminalize mental illness is a no-go, really, it is.  Simply put, 'Go Bleep Yourself' is not in the same universe as 'I'm coming back here and am going to kick your ass'.  It would be better if there were fewer campus cops-- ideally, at least in most cases, no campus cops, since the actual local cops are just a phone call away: most of us Xers and up went to higher ed institutions, esp if they were private ones, which never employed a licensed sworn LEO.  What is needed is trained mental health professionals on campus who can intervene with such kids, only using actual coppers when absolutely necessary.

I don't think anybody here is disagreeing with you in principle.  But we (I count myself here, because unruly patrons) have to deal with these situations on the ground, in practical terms.  That means making tough choices, and trying to strike a careful balance. 

It goes very much against the grain for a public librarian to deny library service to any member of the public.  But we've had people harassing staff before.  We've had people harassing other patrons.  On two different occasions we've had patrons with records of serious felonies.  One was pursuing a recently-hired staff member whom he had once been jailed for assaulting.  The other was certifiably criminally insane, had committed unspeakable crimes, and was now out in the public again.  His mere presence and threatening behavior were creating a climate of fear for patrons and staff alike. 

The first threw a fit when I respectfully told him that the staff member he was stalking did not wish to interact with him.  He stormed out threatening legal action.  We fortunately never saw him again.  We bore with the other until his disturbing behavior became impossible to ignore.  Then we had the police serve a ban notice.  Then he came again, in deliberate violation of the notice, and we promptly called the police and had him removed.

These are not steps we've undertaken lightly.  If anything, I've tended to err on the side of caution, and let bad patron situations continue longer than they should have.  I suspect that the same is often true with educators and academic institutions.  None of us wants to penalize people who are going through a hard time, or just weren't raised right, or stigmatize the mentally ill.  But we've got to deal with those who pose potential threats to others, and the problem only seems to be getting worse with time.

[kaysixteen]

1) Say I am a patron of your library.  I come up to circ desk, want to do something that is against the rules.  Librarian tells me this.   I try to argue her out of it.  I fail, she sternly repeats policy. I then storm out the door and shout out 'go bleep yourself' slamming door as well.   Does this conduct cause you, the director, to put me on the banned list?

2) You are living in a state where, like it or not, the law probably allows the PL director to impose such consequences far more easily or readily than this could occur up here.  WRT to that former mental patient who ultimately you had to get cops to toss, what exactly was the nature of his in-library behavior that got this treatment imposed?   I confess the way you talk about him does not necessarily demonstrate an open mind, esp since he is, after all, legally and certifiably insane.

3) WRT classroom behavior,it is also clear that many posters here are uncomfortable with the behavior of many young male students, many of which are obviously either mentally ill or on the spectrum (and there will be many more such kids showing up in college classrooms nowadays than would have been seen fifty years ago, for a variety of cultural and legal reasons, one of which is that the very presence of testing and special ed IEPs in public k12 schools means many spectrum kids will nowadays have been given the education that would allow them to go to college in the first place, something that largely did not occur fifty years ago).  I am still stunned that we actually had a person here argue that a colleague should post a video of classroom misbehavior on the part of one such student, on social media, in order to both shame kid and get yuk-yuks for colleagues.  And others have openly suggested kids behaving poorly in class should expect their papers downgraded by professors.  Such stunningly unprofessional conduct and advocacy is appalling.

[fleabite]

kaysixteen,

With respect, I have three comments. First, I don't think any academics on this board have ever suggested giving students grades other than what their work has earned.

Second, there was no suggestion that a video of classroom misbehavior should be posted, nor would anyone here shame a student publicly in that way. The suggestion was that the educator should make a gif—that is, a cartoon image about such behavior. No one would know which student inspired the cartoon.

Third, you have been posting a lot of hypotheticals lately. Replying to such comments takes time and can divert the focus of a thread. Many individuals come here to share information, request advice, and sometimes to vent. Participants in the fora have limited time to engage, so it may be unrealistic to expect discussions of such hypothetical situations.

With respect,

fleabite

[MarathonRunner]

Random thoughts:

1) Let me be blunt-- professor X does not get to take out his irriation at He Told Me To Go Bleep Myself, by downgrading HTMTGBM's term paper.   Really, he just doesn't.  I had been trying to nudge people here to see this, but maybe I did not nudge hard enough.

2) Using bad cases, such as the kid who did go on the shooting spree, to criminalize mental illness is a no-go, really, it is.  Simply put, 'Go Bleep Yourself' is not in the same universe as 'I'm coming back here and am going to kick your ass'.   It would be better if there were fewer campus cops-- ideally, at least in most cases, no campus cops, since the actual local cops are just a phone call away: most of us Xers and up went to higher ed institutions, esp if they were private ones, which never employed a licensed sworn LEO.  What is needed is trained mental health professionals on campus who can intervene with such kids, only using actual coppers when absolutely necessary.

Yeah, no. Telling me to go bleep myself is considered professional misconduct, and the student would be asked to leave the classroom. If they didn't, or if it was on online course, I am required to submit a professionalism concern to our associate dean academic, who would then take it from there if I felt uncomfortable meeting with the student. If I met with the student, they would still be written up and sent to the associate dean, but if it was a one-time thing they would be allowed to stay in class. Two instances and they'd be removed from class, and potentially required to take a year off from our program or even removed from our program. We take professionalism very seriously. Swear all you want privately. Don't do it in academic or professional contexts. Just don't. Not acceptable.

[kaysixteen]

1) Fleabite, you are just wrong.   It did not take me that long at all to recover this discussion:

"Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 12, 2025, 05:40:15 AM
Yep. I don't get paid enough to deal with this shit. This jackass made faces at me too! Wth???

Oh, on camera?  I see a gif in the works.  This an excellent clip to illustrate what not to do for future students.  Shame and memorialize."

This is an overt suggestion that a professor shame a student. Nothing here suggests even that such shaming would be anonymous.   But even if shamer intends such anonymity, that would be very hard to accomplish on any small residential campus.  And, in any case, rinse and repeat: it is never acceptable for adult professionals to shame their students on the world wide lasts for ever wonder web.

You also suggest that some folks here come here to vent, which I know and understand.  Am I also to be allowed to do this myself?  Let's try this: this is a forum for academics, who know and use spcratic teaching, and hypotheticals are a key component of such an approach.   No one has to answer any such hypotheticals here, but probably no one should get annoyed that these appear.

[Antiphon1]

Since you included me in this argument, please let me address your primary complaints.

1. Yes, any professor can assign a failing grade to an oral presentation if the student chooses to deviate from the instructions.  Making faces and tongue wagging were most likely not part of the assignment or a resonable interpretion of the instructions.  Unless I missed some part of the decsciption, the performance was a goofy, intentional provocation not a serious project attempt.

2.  You can't possibly be suggesting that all students should be afforded an unlimited amount of latitude for self expression regardless of the assignment's prompt and parameters?  So, a student should be allowed to submit absolutely any material and receive a passing grade?  If you are, then you are not a serious respondent.  No one gets to do exaclty what they want all the time.

3.  If you are bothered by the descriptions of students' ridiculous behavior, don't read this thread.  No one here suggests any actions that would irreparably harm or emotionally scar another person.  You seem to infer some underlying nefarious intentions where there are none.  Making fun of the person's actions does not automatically mean the person is being denigrated.  For instance, slipping on the banana peel as an action can be humorous.  Harming your self or someone else is not exactly a good time but does not elicit laugher because the context is different. 

4.  Advocating for students a large part of my job.  If I have to drag an ungrateful, immature student to the educational light by the proverbial hair of their head, I probably feel the need to share the incident as a matter of catharsis.  It's not intended to harm the student in any way.  But, we are allowed to have an opinion and a reaction to the student who has annoyed us.  Just as, I'm quite sure,   the student has an opinion and reaction to us.

5. Seriously, Kay, you need to lighten up.  The reason we come here is to blow off steam not to be lectured about our lack of perfection.  No one is presuming deity.  Much to the contary, we are mostly bemused by our fallibility.

[Minervabird]

So, how about those Dodgers?

[fleabite]

1) Fleabite, you are just wrong.  It did not take me that long at all to recover this discussion:

"Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 12, 2025, 05:40:15 AM
Yep. I don't get paid enough to deal with this shit. This jackass made faces at me too! Wth???

Oh, on camera?  I see a gif in the works.  This an excellent clip to illustrate what not to do for future students.  Shame and memorialize."

This is an overt suggestion that a professor shame a student. Nothing here suggests even that such shaming would be anonymous.  But even if shamer intends such anonymity, that would be very hard to accomplish on any small residential campus.  And, in any case, rinse and repeat: it is never acceptable for adult professionals to shame their students on the world wide lasts for ever wonder web.

That was the post to which I was referring. "A gif" is almost always used these days to refer to a cartoon or animation. I see no suggestion here that the poster meant that they would use an identifiable image. A gif would not point to any one student, even among viewers at a small college.

You also suggest that some folks here come here to vent, which I know and understand.  Am I also to be allowed to do this myself?  Let's try this: this is a forum for academics, who know and use spcratic teaching, and hypotheticals are a key component of such an approach.  No one has to answer any such hypotheticals here, but probably no one should get annoyed that these appear.

I distinguish venting from posing hypothetical questions, some of which imply criticism of other posters. But I am just one voice on these fora, so I will leave that subject.

[fleabite]

So, how about those Dodgers?

Okay, back to the Dodgers.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

I find it funny and frustrating the level to which this topic has gone south.

Just so you know, kay, I had ZERO engagement with the student before he decided to go on a rant, cuss me out and threaten me because he didn't like the written INSTRUCTIONS on the assignment. In other words- he threw the first punch. The only (extremely neutral) communication I have had with this student has been via email and I did not even address his misconduct because I was instructed not to do so. The student has been argumentative, via email, with the Dean's Office because he feels justified in his actions (according to the DO). I also find it a little offensive that you're suggesting that I would penalize a student on an assignment just because he's being an asshole (unless you're being hypothetical- it's hard to tell sometimes).

[fishbrains]

So, how about those Dodgers?

Well, they aren't behaving much better than this student. But I've always found it odd that a grown person in a baseball cap can purposely throw a projectile 90-plus miles-per-hour at another person and not be permanently banned or jailed for it.

[Minervabird]

So, how about those Dodgers?

Well, they aren't behaving much better than this student. But I've always found it odd that a grown person in a baseball cap can purposely throw a projectile 90-plus miles-per-hour at another person and not be permanently banned or jailed for it.

So, how about those Dodgers?

Well, they aren't behaving much better than this student. But I've always found it odd that a grown person in a baseball cap can purposely throw a projectile 90-plus miles-per-hour at another person and not be permanently banned or jailed for it.

That's nothing. Read about the use of "body line" throwing in cricket
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodyline