Personal Pronouns / First Names

[Caracal]

I'm not going to participate in pronoun foolishness in any case, and (for now at least) I'm in a situation where my superiors would back me up.

What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology. It is just about courtesy. If someone wants to be addressed by a particular pronoun or particular name, it would be rude to refuse...

Including the individual who preferred "Yourmajesty"? What about if someone wanted "Womenarestupid" or any other statement that would be unacceptable in polite company otherwise? Is anything a person wishes you to say "rude to refuse"?

People actually do get to pick their preferred names now and I haven't noticed it leading to classroom chaos. I sometimes have students asking to be known by names that strike me as silly, but that isn't my business is it? People change their names or go by names that are not their legal names all the time. I have yet to encounter anyone with a name I actually found offensive to say though...so this seems like it won't be any more of a problem with pronouns.

[downer]

Back in the last century, we debated a lot about whether to use "he" for all persons, or whether we should use "he or she", "s/he" "she" or "they." The grammar conservatives insisted that there was only one correct usage, and all uses apart from "he" were incorrect. But that was not convincing. It was also plausible that using male pronouns to refer to all people reflected underlying ideological biases. So ideology is reflected in grammar. The suggested changes are not inserting ideology where there was none before: they are just changing the ideology.

The introduction of non-binary pronouns is certainly ideological. There are other considerations apart from ideology: elegance and simplicity are big ones. Politeness is another. Refusing to use non-binary pronouns is also ideological.

How much ideological freedom should members of a higher ed institution have in the classroom? There are different ways of expressing ideas, some more likely to cause offense than others. Lots of loaded words are contentious and their use is likely to lead to trouble. People who use those words are probably looking for trouble. There are ways to express views without causing offense.

[marshwiggle]

But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.

It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.

[writingprof]

What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology.

It is certainly ideological, and it certainly has political consequences.

Sure, but . . . .

Thank you for the useful illustration of moving the goalpost.

[tuxedo_cat]

I once broke up with someone who reported with some pride(?) about how he essentially refused to respect a student's request to be referred to as she/her.  Like, seriously?  It was some kind of affront to his authority as the professor to be asked to do such a thing.  <eyeroll>

Ok, there was also that problem of his decision to dress up as Shirtless Putin for a costume party which he thought was f'ing hilarious.  I mean maybe it was, but after seeing pictures, there was just no way we were going to be doing any of *that* again.

[marshwiggle]

Question for lawyers:

If a student consistently went by a name (and gender) other than what was specified in their registration documentation, and then committed plagiarism or some other academic dishonesty, could the student then make the claim that the student registered had not committed the infraction and therefore could not be disciplined? (Thus allowing the student to revert to the "registered" name with no penalty?)

[Caracal]

But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.

It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.

But we do this all the time. If you call the roll on the first day for Benjamin and the student says, oh I go by Ben, or Sean (probably a middle name) or Trey, or anything else do you refuse to use it?

[Caracal]

What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology.

It is certainly ideological, and it certainly has political consequences.

Sure, but . . . .

Thank you for the useful illustration of moving the goalpost.

Hmm, I think thats called not addressing the argument. I still don't quite understand why you think it would be appropriate to dictate to students the gender you'll be referring to them by in class.

[polly_mer]

I still don't quite understand why you think it would be appropriate to dictate to students the gender you'll be referring to them by in class.

A hypothetical argument goes along the lines that the identity a person chooses for themselves is much less relevant than the identity that the group assigns the individual for efficient workings of the group.  "You are not a person" holds true in the sense that a generic you does not get to choose how others see and treat you.  In many situations, the legal name must be used, regardless of one's preferences, to make the system work.  Insisting on being unique instead of following the social norms makes one a significant inconvenience to other people, which often results in people choosing their own convenience and efficiency of the group workings over the expressed wishes of the one individual.

A pretty good lay perspective on both the realities of being an individual in a society being assigned a role and why American society still needs to work on being much better about stepping away from assigned roles is David Wong's "5 Helpful Answers to Society's Most Uncomfortable Questions".

You are, therefore, not a person any more than a leaf is a tree. It makes far more sense to think of yourself as one part of a whole (the "whole" being every human who has ever lived) than as an individual -- you benefit from the whole's successes, and you pay for its mistakes as if they were your own -- whether you want to or not.

This is not abstract philosophy, this is not something you can choose to believe or not believe -- this is a statement of physical fact. Refusing to acknowledge it will only leave you endlessly confused and frustrated. For instance, when you show up at a job interview, or a trial, or the set of a porno, that whole context will walk in the door with you. Everyone in that room will be making certain assumptions about you and will hold certain expectations, based on the greater whole of which you are a part.

<snip>

The big flaw in humanity is that we always cling to short-term comfort over long-term prosperity (because we see ourselves as individuals, instead of part of a whole), and certain classes of people were benefiting from doing things the old way, even if humanity as a whole was not.

<snip>

And I completely get why a low-income, lonely white dude is sick to death of hearing about how his movies, video games, and jokes are racist or sexist or homophobic. The logic is almost impossible to argue with: "If their problems as women are on the level of getting Hollywood to cast a plus-size Wonder Woman, and my problems involve not being able to afford heat in the winter, then it's downright evil to belittle my real problems while demanding I worry about that trivial SJW Tumblr bullshit."

site: https://www.cracked.com/blog/5-helpful-answers-to-societys-most-uncomfortable-questions/

While a gender identity is important to the individual, whether it's a he or she who just pointed out that we need to use Maxwell's equations to solve this problem is irrelevant to the functioning of the class.  A good contribution to the discussion connecting this week's reading and last week's reading by individual X is the same whether individual X is wearing a frilly skirt with a full beard or cargo pants with a fabulous tiara.  Thus, for the convenience of discussions in class, even learning people's names can be irrelevant if everyone sits in assigned seating so today's contribution boxes can be marked appropriately and the legal names go on every submitted written assignment.

[writingprof]

I once broke up with someone who reported with some pride(?) about how he essentially refused to respect a student's request to be referred to as she/her.  Like, seriously?  It was some kind of affront to his authority as the professor to be asked to do such a thing.  <eyeroll>

Ok, there was also that problem of his decision to dress up as Shirtless Putin for a costume party which he thought was f'ing hilarious.  I mean maybe it was, but after seeing pictures, there was just no way we were going to be doing any of *that* again.

I thought we agreed to keep this between us.  Also, I looked damn good in that costume.

[marshwiggle]

But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.

It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.

But we do this all the time. If you call the roll on the first day for Benjamin and the student says, oh I go by Ben, or Sean (probably a middle name) or Trey, or anything else do you refuse to use it?

I actually do it, but that a courtesy; it would not be unprofessional to address people by their legal names under which they are registered. Suggesting that people ought to be morally (or even worse, legally) compelled to use whatever a person chooses is ridiculous.

[revert79]

I once broke up with someone who reported with some pride(?) about how he essentially refused to respect a student's request to be referred to as she/her.  Like, seriously?  It was some kind of affront to his authority as the professor to be asked to do such a thing.  <eyeroll>

Ok, there was also that problem of his decision to dress up as Shirtless Putin for a costume party which he thought was f'ing hilarious.  I mean maybe it was, but after seeing pictures, there was just no way we were going to be doing any of *that* again.

I thought we agreed to keep this between us.  Also, I looked damn good in that costume.

Hahaha!  Omg!  Laughing-crying emoji!  Sdrasvoitchiya writingprof!

Anyway, I just thought of something else...which kind of has to do with the role of the individual within the group and acknowledging the dominant ideology of a particular setting.   At the art school where I am an adjunct, there is what seems to me a very high rate of alternatively-gendered identities in the classroom.  If I have a class of 20 students, I could expect at least 5 to have a non-binary or non-obvious pronoun request and can also expect first names to change with the tides.  Which, my goal is to make this seamless and natural for everyone, while not being afraid to show that it takes social and intellectual work for the group.  Since it is not currently the dominant reality of our culture, I think it's okay for everyone to recognize that we're all learning together in the classroom regarding gender freedom and inclusivity; the people with an obvious or binary pronoun have to do the work of accommodating the non-binary identities, which might make us more empathic and creative people as we attempt this experimental social form.

Is the art school a hothouse environment that will evaporate and leave my non-binary flowers out in the cold when they graduate with their BFAs?  Maybe, or maybe they will find an approach to daily life that best accomodates their worldview and self-concept.  Maybe they will have the courage to lead weird lives that don't recognize the shitty commodified approach to life that is the dominant economic and social force in this world.  I don't know why but I feel optimistic that if the students' instructors reinforce a culture of inclusivity and flexibility, especially if that means some hard work on the part of the teacher and the group, then this inclusivity will chance of thriving in the larger social world.  If the fact that we have to work kind of hard to make this happen is apparent,  I think that is actually a good thing...it lets the non-binary individual know that they are supported at a certain expense, and that they can't take the behavior of others for granted once they leave the (artificial, extra-supportive) walls of the institution.   

Thinking about this, I remembered that our admissions office has a big glass container full of pins that people can wear, stating their pronoun.  It has all kinds of available choices, including "zhe/zhey" etc.  So students can choose to decide if they want to publicly self-identify with a non-standard pronoun or not.  But also the glass container has the effect of presenting the ideological identity of the school at the moment when students decide to enter or not for their degree.  In the admissions office, it declares "this is a place where your non-binary, unexpected gender identity will be recoginzed, welcome, and even celebrated.  If you can't handle the thought of your fellow students assuming alternate gender identities, maybe look elsewhere for your degree.  There is a really square state school up the road hint hint".  I have seen very few students actually wearing one of these pins, so I am guessing that the power of the pins is more in this public-service-announcement role.

Okay that's all for now, salaam friends

[revert79]

But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.

It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.

But we do this all the time. If you call the roll on the first day for Benjamin and the student says, oh I go by Ben, or Sean (probably a middle name) or Trey, or anything else do you refuse to use it?

I actually do it, but that a courtesy; it would not be unprofessional to address people by their legal names under which they are registered. Suggesting that people ought to be morally (or even worse, legally) compelled to use whatever a person chooses is ridiculous.

Dear Marshwiggle,

Sorry but I find your argument kind of silly.  College is not some 1-to-1 simulacrum of real life, it is its own special and specific environment, with its own social rules and concepts.  Like, imagine if I was like "Okay Marshwiggle, happy to interact with you on this forum, but I demand to use your real name.  If I can't call you Professor Joe Schmo from Northeast Kingdom University, @jschmo@neku.edu, I'm not going to interact...I refuse the name Marshwiggle because it's not your legal name."  Does that make sense in the context of this forum?  No way!  You wouldn't feel safe!  Why should the classroom be different?  College students are learning who they are in a safe place...why should we demand the priviledge to reinforce the dominant cultural form that exists beyond those safe walls?

[revert79]

But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.

It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.

But we do this all the time. If you call the roll on the first day for Benjamin and the student says, oh I go by Ben, or Sean (probably a middle name) or Trey, or anything else do you refuse to use it?

I actually do it, but that a courtesy; it would not be unprofessional to address people by their legal names under which they are registered. Suggesting that people ought to be morally (or even worse, legally) compelled to use whatever a person chooses is ridiculous.

Dear Marshwiggle,

Sorry but I find your argument kind of silly.  College is not some 1-to-1 simulacrum of real life, it is its own special and specific environment, with its own social rules and concepts.  Like, imagine if I was like "Okay Marshwiggle, happy to interact with you on this forum, but I demand to use your real name.  If I can't call you Professor Joe Schmo from Northeast Kingdom University, jschmo@neku.edu, I'm not going to interact...I refuse the name Marshwiggle because it's not your legal name."  Does that make sense in the context of this forum?  No way!  You wouldn't feel safe!  Why should the classroom be different?  College students are learning who they are in a safe place...why should we demand the priviledge to reinforce the dominant cultural form that exists beyond those safe walls?

[revert79]

Sorry, that last post was a mistake, but look at the cool boxes-within-boxes pattern it makes!  Meditative, relaxing.

Ma'Salaama friends :)